Document provided by Benson & Associates



IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

DISTRICT OF KANSAS


3 PAULA DARLENE HAMPTON and

DEMETRIA COOPER,

4

Plaintiffs,

5

vs. No. 97-2182-KHV

6

DILLARD'S DEPARTMENT

7 STORES, INC.,

8 Defendant.

9

10 DEPOSITION OF THOMAS J. WILSON, a witness,

taken on behalf of the Plaintiffs, pursuant to

11 Notice, on the 8th day of September, 1997, at the

law offices of Spencer, Fane, Britt & Browne, 9401

12 Indian Creek Parkway, Suite 500, Overland Park,

Kansas, before

13

JUDY L. WHITEHOUSE,

14

of AAA Reporting Company, a Notary Public of the

15 State of Kansas.

16 APPEARANCES

17 For the Plaintiffs:

MR. ARTHUR BENSON and

18 MS. KATHY D. FINNELL

ARTHUR BENSON & ASSOCIATES

19 1000 Walnut Street, Suite 1125

Kansas City, Missouri 64106-2123

20

21 For the Defendant:

MS. ELAINE DRODGE KOCH and

22 MS. KAREN KESSLER CAIN

SPENCER, FANE, BRITT & BROWNE

23 1000 Walnut Street, Suite 1400

Kansas City, Missouri 64106

24

25



2



1 STIPULATION

2 It was stipulated by and between counsel

3 that the presentment of this deposition to the

4 witness by the officer is expressly waived, and that

5 if said deposition is not signed by the witness by

6 the time of the commencement of the trial, it may be

7 used as though signed.

8

9 INDEX

10 WITNESS: Thomas J. Wilson PAGE:

11 Examination by Mr. Benson 3

Examination by Ms. Koch 212

12 Reexamination by Mr. Benson 213

13

14

EXHIBITS: MARKED:

15

1 - Security Rules & Regulations 45

16 2 - Security Officer objectives 2/97 45

3 - Incident report 45

17 4 - Shrinkage, we all pay 45

5 - Security officer objectives 2/27/96 205

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25



3



1 (The deposition commenced at 9:03

2 a.m.)

3 THOMAS J. WILSON,

4 a witness, being first duly sworn, testified

5 under oath as follows:

6 EXAMINATION BY MR. BENSON:

7 Q. I have about 9:03. Please state your name.

8 A. Thomas J. Wilson.

9 Q. How are you employed?

10 A. I have two jobs. One is a sergeant with the

11 Kansas Highway Patrol, and the second one is

12 with Dillard's security.

13 Q. Where do you reside?

14 A. [Deleted]

15 Q. Are you married?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Do you have children?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Do you have any children?

20 A. No. Why?

21 Q. Just asking.

22 A. I was just curious.

23 Q. I just ask questions.

24 MS. KOCH: He will be asking a couple

25 of questions about your background.



4



1 THE WITNESS: I've never had that one

2 asked before.

3 MS. KOCH: Remember, everything is on

4 the record. He will be asking you questions and

5 you will be answering. The court reporter will

6 be taking everything down.

7 Q. (By Mr. Benson) Do you prefer to be called

8 Sergeant Wilson or Mr. Wilson?

9 A. I am off duty, Mr. Wilson would be fine.

10 Q. Mr. Wilson, have you retained counsel concerning

11 this case?

12 A. Dillard's has.

13 Q. Do you have a personal attorney?

14 A. I don't have a personal attorney.

15 Q. Do you consider yourself to be represented by

16 counsel at this deposition?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. All right. Prior to this deposition, did you

19 engage in any preparation for the deposition?

20 A. As to?

21 Q. Did you review any documents?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. What documents did you review?

24 A. My report that I made.

25 Q. Any other documents?



5



1 A. Yes.

2 Q. What documents?

3 A. I looked at officer Cleveland's report, and a

4 Pam Fitzgerel.

5 Q. Any other documents that you reviewed?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Did you review or read any depositions that have

8 been taken in this case?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Did you meet with or talk to by telephone with

11 any Dillard's employees concerning your

12 preparation for this deposition?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Have you discussed this litigation with any

15 Dillard's employees?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Who are they?

18 A. Marvie Dirks.

19 Q. When did you last discuss this litigation with

20 her?

21 A. I cannot recall.

22 Q. Within the last two weeks?

23 A. No, sir.

24 Q. Do you recall how many such discussions

25 concerning this litigation you have had with



6



1 Marvie Dirks?

2 A. Just when I was notified of this.

3 Q. What was the substance of that discussion?

4 A. That I would be having a phone call from Elaine.

5 Q. Any other substance in your discussions with

6 Marvie Dirks?

7 A. No, sir.

8 Q. Have you been deposed before?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. On approximately how many occasions?

11 A. I cannot recall.

12 Q. More than ten?

13 A. No.

14 Q. If at any time you don't understand any question

15 I ask, will you be sure to indicate it so I can

16 repeat it or rephrase it?

17 A. I will.

18 Q. Do you understand that at any time during the

19 deposition that you think of an answer to a

20 prior question or you think of something that

21 would require you to supplement or change your

22 answer that you should do that at any time it

23 occurs to you?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Even if I am in the middle of a question say,



7



1 "Excuse me, Mr. Benson, I just remembered

2 something on a question you asked me 20 minutes

3 ago," will you be sure and do that?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Even after the deposition if you think of

6 something that is material that you believe

7 requires you to change or supplement an answer,

8 would you please contact the attorneys for

9 Dillard's and advise them?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Have you ever been a party to a civil suit

12 either as a plaintiff or a defendant?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Have you ever been a witness in a civil suit?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Have testified as a witness in criminal cases?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. On many occasions?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Mr. Wilson, as of today, do you believe either

21 of the plaintiffs in this case, Paula Hampton or

22 Demetria Cooper, left the Dillard's store at

23 Oak Park Mall on April 5th, 1996, with property

24 of Dillard's they had not paid for?

25 A. Yes.



8



1 Q. Which one?

2 A. The young female.

3 Q. Demetria Cooper?

4 A. I did not have their names.

5 Q. There were two females involved in this

6 incident?

7 A. Yes, sir.

8 Q. One appeared younger than the other?

9 A. Yes, sir.

10 Q. You are saying it's your belief that the younger

11 of the two left with property of Dillard's not

12 paid for?

13 A. Yes, sir.

14 Q. Is it your belief that Demetria Cooper stole

15 property from Dillard's on that occasion?

16 A. Yes, sir.

17 Q. What property was it that was stolen?

18 A. It was one item that was dark in color.

19 Q. What was the item?

20 A. I have no idea.

21 Q. Was it an item of clothing?

22 A. Yes, sir.

23 Q. What else can you tell us about this item other

24 than it was clothing and dark in color?

25 A. That's it.



9



1 Q. What is the basis for your belief that the

2 younger of the females stole property from

3 Dillard's on April 5th, 1996?

4 A. Just talking to Pam Fitzgerel.

5 Q. On the date April 5th or in any conversations

6 subsequent to that?

7 A. I don't know the date of this.

8 Q. All right.

9 A. If you just tell me --

10 MS. KOCH: For the record, we can say

11 the date of the incident in question is April

12 5th, 1996.

13 A. Okay.

14 Q. (By Mr. Benson) Let me repeat my question. You

15 say that part of your basis for believing that

16 the young female stole property on April 5th,

17 1996, was a conversation with Pam Fitzgerel.

18 Is that a single conversation, or more than one

19 conversations?

20 A. Single.

21 Q. Was this a conversation that occurred on April

22 5th, 1996?

23 A. Yes, sir.

24 Q. Was that a conversation that occurred before you

25 approached Paula Hampton or Demetria Cooper, the



10



1 two females involved?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Any other basis for your belief that the younger

4 of the two females stole property of Dillard's

5 on April 5th, 1996, other than your conversation

6 with Pam Fitzgerel before you approached the two

7 women?

8 A. Of my observation, prior to Ms. Fitzgerel.

9 Q. Any other basis besides your conversation with

10 Fitzgerel and your observation?

11 A. No, sir.

12 Q. Mr. Wilson, I assume you graduated from high

13 school, is that correct?

14 A. Correct.

15 Q. Where did you attend high school?

16 A. Hutchinson.

17 Q. When did you graduate?

18 A. 1968.

19 Q. You attended college?

20 A. Junior college.

21 Q. Where?

22 A. Hutchinson Community College, and got an AA in

23 1974. And also got an AA from Colby Community

24 College with an AA in criminal justice.

25 Q. In what year?



11



1 A. I don't know.

2 Q. Any other college attendance?

3 A. No, sir.

4 Q. What was your first full-time employment after

5 high school?

6 A. I worked for my father.

7 Q. What business was he in?

8 A. Self-employed in sprinkler systems, wells,

9 pumps.

10 Q. How long did you work for your father?

11 A. After high school?

12 Q. Yes. Full time.

13 A. One year.

14 Q. What was your next --

15 A. Excuse me. Well, that was not full time. I was

16 going to college at the time.

17 Q. What was your first full-time job after high

18 school?

19 A. Uncle Sam, US Army.

20 Q. Do you recall what years you were in the Army?

21 A. 1969 to 1972.

22 Q. Were you drafted or enlisted?

23 A. Enlisted.

24 Q. What was your rank when you were discharged?

25 A. Sergeant.



12



1 Q. Was it an honorable discharge?

2 A. Yes, sir.

3 Q. Where did you serve?

4 A. Served at Fort Leavenworth and Inchon, Korea.

5 Q. What was your military occupational specialty?

6 A. I had two, one was a correctional confinement,

7 and the other one was military police.

8 Q. What was your next full-time employment after

9 the Army?

10 A. Kansas Highway Patrol.

11 Q. When were you first employed by the Highway

12 Patrol?

13 A. November 18th, 1974.

14 Q. Have you been continuously employed by the

15 Kansas Highway Patrol since 1974?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. How long have you been working part-time at

18 Dillard's?

19 A. A little over two years.

20 Q. Do you recall the month or the day and month

21 when you first began working at Dillard's?

22 A. No, sir.

23 Q. About how many hours per week do you work at

24 Dillard's?

25 A. I cannot speculate.



13



1 Q. What is your best estimate?

2 A. I can't, because they are some weeks I don't

3 even work.

4 Q. About how many hours per year do you work?

5 A. I don't know.

6 Q. Do you recall how much you earned at Dillard's

7 in 1996?

8 A. No, sir.

9 Q. What is the highest number of hours you work in

10 a week at Dillard's during the last two years?

11 A. 35 hours.

12 Q. Were you on vacation from the Highway Patrol at

13 that time?

14 A. I don't recall.

15 Q. What is a customary or a usual number of hours,

16 say, to the nearest five, 18 to 20 or something

17 like that?

18 A. I have had variance from two hours up to 35

19 hours.

20 Q. Who determines how many hours you work at

21 Dillard's?

22 A. My scheduling.

23 Q. Are you offered work, and if it didn't conflict

24 with your Highway Patrol duties then you accept

25 the assignment?



14



1 A. Yes, sir.

2 Q. During the last two years, have you been working

3 a particular shift for the highway patrol?

4 A. No, sir.

5 Q. Your shift rotates?

6 A. Yes, sir.

7 Q. How often does it rotate?

8 A. Every six days.

9 Q. Would you describe your shift rotation with the

10 Highway Patrol, how does it -- what are the

11 shifts that you rotate through?

12 A. We work a day shift, then we go on days off, and

13 then we work an evening shift, and then days

14 off, and then we go back to a day shift.

15 Q. When you work a day shift, what are the hours of

16 the day shift?

17 A. I don't have a set hour. I can come out

18 anywhere from 6:00 to 8:00 in the morning.

19 Q. Who determines that?

20 A. I do.

21 Q. Is the day shift an eight-hour day?

22 A. Eight and a half hours.

23 Q. How many days do you work on the day shift

24 before you get days off?

25 A. As I stated earlier, six.



15



1 Q. Six?

2 A. Yes, sir.

3 Q. Six days on the day shift?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. How many days off?

6 A. Two days.

7 Q. Then six days on the night shift?

8 A. Yes, sir.

9 Q. Do you determine when you begin the night shift?

10 A. I have flexibility on my hours.

11 Q. Within what range?

12 A. Anywhere from 12:00 to 9:00.

13 Q. 12:00 noon?

14 A. Yes, sir, until 9:00 p.m.

15 Q. And the night shift is also an eight and a half

16 hour shift?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And two more days off?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And then back to day shift?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Have you been assigned to continuing training or

23 on an annual or semi-annual basis for the

24 Highway Patrol?

25 A. Yes.



16



1 Q. What is the Highway Patrol's requirements for

2 ongoing training?

3 A. We have -- patrol puts on their own in-service

4 training.

5 Q. How often do you participate in the patrol's

6 in-service training?

7 A. Once a year.

8 Q. What does it consist of in terms of length, is

9 it a one-day, two-day?

10 A. No, it's during the week. I don't know if it's

11 32 hours or 36 hours.

12 Q. Is that required that you participate in it once

13 a year?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. When did you most recently participate in the

16 Kansas Highway Patrol in-service training?

17 A. December, January.

18 Q. What topics did it cover?

19 A. Various topics.

20 Q. Such as?

21 A. You would have to check the training records.

22 Q. I would like your best recall of it.

23 A. I don't remember.

24 Q. Can you remember any single topic from your last

25 Kansas Highway Patrol in-service?



17



1 A. The last one?

2 Q. Yes.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. What can you remember?

5 A. Physical agility testing.

6 Q. How long did that last?

7 A. I was fast runner, so it didn't take long.

8 Q. Did the physical agility test consist of

9 anything other than running?

10 A. Strength test.

11 Q. Anything else?

12 A. No.

13 Q. How long did the running and strength tests

14 take, under an hour?

15 A. Under an hour.

16 Q. Can you remember any other topics from your most

17 recent Kansas Highway Patrol in-service?

18 A. Employee evaluation.

19 Q. How long did the presentation of the employee

20 evaluation topic last?

21 A. I don't know.

22 Q. Under two hours?

23 A. I don't know.

24 Q. Less than a whole day?

25 A. I don't know.



18



1 Q. You don't remember?

2 A. That's correct.

3 Q. What other topics were covered in the Kansas

4 Highway Patrol in-service you last attended?

5 A. I can't remember.

6 Q. You don't recall any others?

7 A. I can't remember what was that week.

8 Q. Is it spread over four days or five days?

9 A. I can't remember if it's four or five.

10 Q. Where was it held?

11 A. At our training academy in Salina, Kansas.

12 Q. Does the Kansas Highway Patrol offer any other

13 formal training in addition to its annual

14 in-service?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. What are those training opportunities?

17 A. There are various ones, standardized field

18 sobriety testing, commercial vehicle Level 2

19 inspections, kinesic training.

20 Q. What is that, kinesic training?

21 A. Yes, sir.

22 Q. That has to do with weight and momentum?

23 A. I have no idea. I just look at the rosters that

24 come out that offer additional training if you

25 would like to attend.



19



1 Q. Any others that you can think of?

2 A. Drug recognition evaluation, radar instructor.

3 Q. Any others you can think of?

4 A. No, I can't.

5 Q. Have you participated in any of these training

6 options that you have described, say, in the

7 last five years?

8 A. I cannot remember for five years.

9 Q. However far back you can remember, when do you

10 last recall?

11 Let me ask it this way: Are these

12 voluntary training opportunities?

13 A. Yes, sir.

14 Q. Do you get paid for attending them if you elect

15 to?

16 A. We are paid monthly.

17 Q. Do you get paid extra for attending these

18 voluntarily?

19 A. No, sir.

20 Q. If you attend these voluntary training sessions

21 does it benefit you at all in terms of your pay?

22 A. No, sir.

23 Q. When is the last time you can recall having

24 attended one of these voluntary training

25 sessions?



20



1 A. I can't recall.

2 Q. More than two years ago?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. More than five years ago?

5 A. I can't recall.

6 Q. Do you recall what the topic was of the last

7 voluntary Kansas Highway Patrol training session

8 you attended?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Can you recall the topics of any of the Kansas

11 Highway Patrol voluntary training sessions you

12 have ever attended?

13 A. Motorcycle gangs.

14 Q. Do you recall any others?

15 A. Drug recognition examiner, motorcycle school.

16 That's all I can recall.

17 Q. Do you recall approximately how long ago it was

18 that you attended had any of those three

19 voluntary training sessions?

20 A. No.

21 Q. When you enlisted in the Army, after you

22 finished basic training, did you participate in

23 training for your correctional confinement and

24 military police duties?

25 A. Yes.



21



1 Q. Where did that training take place?

2 A. Fort Gordon, Georgia.

3 Q. How long did that last?

4 A. I don't recall.

5 Q. Did you do them both at the same time?

6 A. I went to three schools.

7 Q. One after another?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. When you finished them, you ended up with your

10 two MOSs?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. How long did each of those three schools last?

13 A. I can't recall.

14 Q. Do you recall what the names of the three

15 schools were?

16 A. First one was a leadership school, then the

17 second one was military police, and the third

18 one was correctional.

19 Q. Were they all at Fort Gordon?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. As best you can recall, what did the leadership

22 school consist of?

23 A. To be a platoon leader.

24 Q. What did the training consist of to help you

25 become a platoon leader?



22



1 A. Discipline.

2 Q. What else?

3 A. That was what leadership school was for.

4 Q. What did the military police school consist of?

5 A. Various police activities, and all the military

6 does.

7 Q. Such as?

8 A. Instead of being a police officer in civilian

9 life, you are a police officer in the military.

10 Q. What can you recall that the military police

11 school training consisted of at Fort Gordon,

12 what did you do during your enrollment in that

13 school?

14 A. I can't recall the curriculum.

15 Q. Are these like a two- or three-week school?

16 A. No. They were longer than two or three weeks.

17 Q. How long were they?

18 A. They were longer than that.

19 Q. Was the leadership school longer than a month?

20 A. No.

21 Q. How long was the leadership school?

22 A. I think it was two weeks.

23 Q. How long was the military police school?

24 A. I can't recall.

25 Q. Four or six weeks, in that range?



23



1 A. I can't recall.

2 Q. Was it longer than two months?

3 A. I don't know.

4 Q. How long was the correctional school?

5 A. I don't remember.

6 Q. Longer than two weeks?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Longer than a month?

9 A. I don't know.

10 Q. What did the correctional school consist of,

11 what did you do when you were in that school?

12 A. On dealing with prisoners.

13 Q. Anything else other than dealing with prisoners?

14 A. That was what correctional field was.

15 Q. After you finished your three school at Fort

16 Gordon, did you serve in the Army as both a

17 correctional confinement officer and a military

18 police officer?

19 A. Yes, sir.

20 Q. In which capacity did you serve longer?

21 A. Correctional field.

22 Q. Correctional what?

23 A. Field.

24 Q. In the correctional field?

25 A. Yes.



24



1 Q. Where were you stationed when you were in the

2 correctional field?

3 A. At Fort Leavenworth.

4 Q. At the military barracks?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. How long were you there?

7 A. I am thinking around two years.

8 Q. While you were stationed at Fort Leavenworth did

9 your duties include anything other than dealing

10 with prisoners?

11 A. No. Oh, yes, military police.

12 Q. You did some MP work at Fort Leavenworth?

13 A. Yes, sir.

14 Q. What did that consist of?

15 A. I was a sergeant road patrol.

16 Q. In the Fort Leavenworth area?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. On the base?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. What were your duties as a sergeant road patrol?

21 A. Being in charge of people that were out on the

22 road.

23 Q. Were you yourself out on the road as well?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. How many people were you in charge of?



25



1 A. I cannot recall.

2 Q. Under ten?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did you do that while you were also a

5 correctional confinement officer, or you went

6 from one to the other?

7 A. Went from one to the other.

8 Q. How long were you in your MP duties at Fort

9 Leavenworth?

10 A. I can't recall.

11 Q. You were at Fort Leavenworth for a total of

12 about two years?

13 A. Yes, sir.

14 Q. Were you in the correctional occupational

15 specialty for most of that time?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. After you left Fort Leavenworth, is that when

18 you were transferred to Inchon, Korea?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. How long were you in Korea?

21 A. I think four, four and a half months.

22 Q. Were you an MP exclusively while you were there?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. What were your duties as an MP in Korea?

25 A. I was a sergeant, road sergeant.



26



1 Q. On the base at Inchon?

2 A. Yes, on the military installation.

3 Q. Did you have any duties as an MP at the military

4 installation in Korea other than the road

5 sergeant on the base?

6 A. No.

7 Q. When you joined the Highway Patrol in Kansas,

8 where were you first assigned?

9 A. Goodland, Kansas.

10 Q. How long were you in Goodland?

11 A. Almost five years.

12 Q. Then where?

13 A. Topeka.

14 Q. How long in Topeka?

15 A. Five years.

16 Q. Then where?

17 A. Wichita.

18 Q. How long in Wichita?

19 A. Nine years.

20 Q. Then where?

21 A. Kansas City.

22 Q. And you have been here ever since?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. When did you become a sergeant in the Highway

25 Patrol?



27



1 A. 1988.

2 Q. From 1974 to 1988, what was your rank, was that

3 patrol officer?

4 A. I was a trooper.

5 Q. What were your duties -- you were a trooper in

6 all three, Goodland, Topeka, and Wichita, is

7 that right?

8 A. And then I got promoted while I was in Wichita.

9 Q. What were your duties as a trooper in Goodland

10 and Topeka?

11 A. In Goodland I was a road trooper. I transferred

12 to Topeka with aircraft, flying, and then I

13 transferred back to the road.

14 Q. Do you have a pilot's license?

15 A. I was working on it at the time.

16 Q. Did you get a pilot's license?

17 A. No, too many plane crashes and that made me

18 decide not to fly anymore.

19 Q. You were in two plane crashes?

20 A. No. There were a lot of plane crashes.

21 Q. There were plane crashes?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. All right. As a road trooper you were assigned

24 a vehicle, I take it?

25 A. Yes.



28



1 Q. In the Kansas Highway Patrol, do road troopers

2 have partners?

3 A. No.

4 Q. You had a vehicle yourself and you had road

5 patrol duties, is that right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. You enforce the laws of Kansas on the highways

8 of Kansas, is that a general description of your

9 duties?

10 A. We enforce the laws of the State of Kansas.

11 Q. Most of your work was on the highways, on the

12 state and federal highways of Kansas?

13 A. The majority of it is.

14 Q. What kinds of laws were you most involved in

15 enforcing?

16 A. I worked in a wide range. I never really

17 concentrated just on one.

18 Q. Did you have some discretion in what you did as

19 a road trooper?

20 A. Yes, sir.

21 Q. Among your responsibilities would be enforcing

22 the traffic laws, I take it?

23 A. Yes, sir.

24 Q. That was some part of your time?

25 A. Yes.



29



1 Q. I guess that was always a part of your time,

2 correct?

3 A. That's correct.

4 Q. Part of your responsibilities would be assisting

5 persons in distress?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Victims of accidents and so forth?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Vehicular malfunctions and so forth?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. What other duties did you have or take upon

12 yourself? We talked about enforcing the traffic

13 laws and assisting persons in distress, what

14 other kinds of activities do you customarily

15 perform?

16 A. Criminal.

17 Q. Criminal investigations?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. What kinds of criminal acts would it frequently

20 be, drug transportation, would that be one?

21 A. Drugs.

22 Q. What other kinds of criminal activities would

23 you customarily find yourself involved in?

24 A. Thefts.

25 Q. Thefts from?



30



1 A. Deprivation of gasoline or services along the

2 interstate, or stolen transportation.

3 Q. Stolen vehicles, cars, trucks?

4 A. Transportation, yes.

5 Q. What else?

6 A. That is it.

7 Q. In the course of these activities you would

8 locate and interview witnesses, I take it?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Write reports?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Make arrests?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Testify in court?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. How long were you in aircraft training?

17 A. I started on my pilot's license when I was out

18 in Goodland and then continued it when I went to

19 Topeka.

20 Q. Did you work on your aircraft pilot's license on

21 your own, or was it part of your Highway Patrol

22 duties?

23 A. On my own.

24 Q. Did you have any aircraft duties when you were

25 in Topeka?



31



1 A. I was assigned the aircraft crew.

2 Q. You flew in aircraft with others?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. How long did do you that?

5 A. I think a couple of months, probably.

6 Q. Did that include spotting speeders on the

7 highway?

8 A. Yes, sir.

9 Q. Assisting and following suspicious vehicles from

10 the air?

11 A. Yes, sir.

12 Q. What else were your aircraft duties?

13 A. That was it.

14 Q. Those two?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Were you a spotter when you were in the plane?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Then you went to Wichita as a trooper and were

19 promoted to sergeant, is that right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. How would you describe the change in duties

22 between the duties of a trooper as compared to

23 the duties of a sergeant?

24 A. Sergeant is first line supervision.

25 Q. In Wichita how many troopers did you supervise?



32



1 A. None.

2 Q. Did you have any first line supervision

3 responsibilities in Wichita?

4 A. No.

5 Q. When you were promoted as a sergeant you

6 transferred to Kansas City?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Explain what your duties were as a sergeant in

9 Wichita.

10 A. I was assigned to the breath alcohol unit for

11 eight years.

12 Q. Did you have first line supervision

13 responsibility in the breath alcohol unit?

14 A. For a very short time.

15 Q. What did that consist of, for that very short

16 time?

17 A. Three troopers.

18 Q. What were their responsibilities?

19 A. Same as my teaching assignments, also. That was

20 it.

21 Q. Teaching what?

22 A. We taught throughout the state for standardized

23 field sobriety, also drug recognition. And then

24 also Intoxilyzer 5000, which is a breath

25 instrument.



33



1 Q. How long did this last?

2 A. About eight years.

3 Q. For eight years you travelled around the state

4 teaching these three topics, is that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Teaching other Highway Patrol employees and

7 local law enforcement?

8 A. And judges, and defense attorneys and

9 prosecution attorneys.

10 Q. During a period of this time you supervised

11 three other troopers?

12 A. As I stated earlier, a very short time.

13 Q. How did that change? What brought about that

14 change?

15 A. A lieutenant that I had. He wanted to run

16 everything.

17 Q. So he assigned those three troopers to himself?

18 A. No, we were all in the unit together, and that

19 he did all the evaluations.

20 Q. You had no evaluative or supervisory

21 responsibilities?

22 A. Right. The reason is we were spread throughout

23 the state.

24 Q. At the end of that eight years, is that when you

25 moved to Kansas City?



34



1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And you were a sergeant here in Kansas City?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Do you supervise other troopers here?

5 A. Yes, I do.

6 Q. How many?

7 A. 12.

8 Q. Are they all road troopers?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Do you have road responsibilities yourself?

11 A. Not per se.

12 Q. What does a typical day on duty for you consist

13 of in your sergeant capacity?

14 A. It varies.

15 Q. What are some of the things you may be doing as

16 a sergeant?

17 A. It would be road duty, just like my 12 troopers

18 do. And in addition, check their paperwork, and

19 do the evaluations.

20 Q. Do each of your troopers get evaluated once a

21 year or twice?

22 A. When they come off probation, yes.

23 Q. While they are on probation how often are they

24 evaluated?

25 A. They are evaluated daily by a field training



35



1 officer, and then I reviewed it.

2 Q. Do you have any troopers under your supervision

3 now who are on probation?

4 A. No.

5 Q. When did you last have a trooper on probation

6 under your supervision?

7 A. I believe May.

8 Q. What do your job duties as sergeant in the

9 Kansas City area consist of other than road

10 duty, checking the paperwork of other troopers,

11 and evaluating other troopers?

12 A. First line supervisor.

13 Q. What does that consist of, what do you do as a

14 first line supervisor?

15 A. If something occurs I will be contacted, if I am

16 the sergeant that is on duty.

17 Q. How big is the Kansas City area that you are

18 assigned to, what is your geographic

19 responsibility?

20 A. Troop A consists of four counties, Leavenworth,

21 Wyandotte, Johnson and Miami County. And I have

22 troopers assigned in all four counties.

23 Q. How many sergeant are there in Troop A?

24 A. We have four sergeants.

25 Q. At least one is always on duty?



36



1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Generally 12 troopers are on duty at any given

3 time?

4 A. No.

5 Q. How many?

6 A. It varies.

7 Q. From?

8 A. From training, state fair, sick, family leave.

9 Q. A maximum of 12 on duty at any one time?

10 A. If I am lucky.

11 Q. When you said your first line supervisory duty

12 would be called upon if something occurs in the

13 area, that would be a major event requiring the

14 assistance of the Highway Patrol?

15 A. Yes, I would be contacted. If my lieutenant was

16 not on duty, then I would be contacted.

17 Q. You would supervise the work of how many ever of

18 your troopers were assigned to this major

19 incident as well?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. How often does something like that occur?

22 A. Not very often.

23 Q. Couple times a year?

24 A. I need a clarification of something really

25 major.



37



1 Q. Sure. I am talking about when -- you said when

2 something occurs that requires your first line

3 supervisory activity, how often does that

4 something occur?

5 A. It varies. We can have requests from other

6 agencies to help set up perimeters if they are

7 looking for a suspect, and I have to assign

8 people into the area.

9 If we have a real major accident, we

10 will assist other agencies and they will go

11 through me to assign one of my officers if it's

12 not on a state or federal highway.

13 Q. If it's on a state or federal highway your

14 troopers would be in charge of providing

15 security?

16 A. Yes, sir.

17 Q. When you are on duty, do you normally work out

18 of an office?

19 A. I have an office, but my car is my office.

20 Q. When you are on duty you are mostly in your car?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. When you were first employed by the Kansas

23 Highway Patrol, did you participate in training?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. How long was the training?



38



1 A. I am thinking it was 16 weeks.

2 Q. Does the Kansas Highway Patrol have a trooper

3 school?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Where is that located?

6 A. Salina, Kansas.

7 Q. What is the name of this school? I call it

8 trooper school, but I don't know what it is.

9 A. Kansas Highway Patrol Training Academy.

10 Q. After the training academy, how long were you on

11 probation?

12 A. The day I was hired I was on one-year probation.

13 Q. So you went off probation after one year from

14 your date of hire?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. That's customary?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. As best as you can recall, what did the training

19 academy consist of, what topics?

20 A. It was 23 years ago, and I cannot recall all of

21 topics. It dealt with police -- what I am doing

22 now.

23 Q. What you are doing now as a Highway Patrol

24 officer?

25 A. Yes, sir.



39



1 Q. Before you began working part-time for

2 Dillard's, did you work part-time for any other

3 employer?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Dillard's is your first part-time employment?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. What is your rate of pay? Are you paid by the

8 hour?

9 A. $15 an hour.

10 Q. Who hired you at Dillard's?

11 A. Marvie Dirks.

12 Q. How did you learn about the job opportunity at

13 Dillard's?

14 A. From a security employee.

15 Q. Who was that?

16 A. Al Sanchez.

17 Q. He is a Highway Patrol trooper?

18 A. Yes, he is. He is a master trooper.

19 Q. He is a what?

20 A. Master Trooper.

21 Q. What does that mean?

22 A. We have ranks. We have Trooper 1, 2, and then

23 we have a master trooper, and then a sergeant.

24 Q. Do you know about how long he has been with the

25 Highway Patrol?



40



1 A. Since 1981.

2 Q. Is he still working at Dillard's as a security

3 officer?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. He told you that there was an opening at

6 Dillard's?

7 A. Correct.

8 Q. And you contacted Marvie Dirks?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. What did the application process consist of,

11 interview?

12 A. Yes, sir.

13 Q. Anything else?

14 A. No.

15 Q. How long did the interview last?

16 A. I think I was there that day for a total of

17 three hours.

18 Q. Did you start with an interview with Marvie

19 Dirks?

20 A. Yes, sir.

21 Q. How long did that last?

22 A. I do not recall.

23 Q. What did you do after the interview with Marvie

24 Dirks?

25 A. I met a security officer, and we visited for a



41



1 while, and he was showing me around.

2 Q. Did Marvie Dirks hire you at the end of the

3 interview?

4 A. Yes, sir.

5 Q. Offered you the job and you accepted?

6 A. Yes, sir.

7 Q. Did she introduce you to the security officer?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Do you know who that was?

10 A. Darrell Haynes.

11 Q. How do you spell Haynes?

12 A. H-a-y-n-e-s.

13 Q. Is he still a security officer at Dillard's?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Does he hold any other law enforcement

16 responsibilities, job?

17 A. He works for a school district.

18 Q. When you met Darrell Haynes, what did he do?

19 You say he showed you around?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. What did that consist of?

22 A. Showing me where their security cameras were

23 located, high theft areas, exit doors,

24 management executive offices.

25 Q. This was a walking tour?



42



1 A. Yes, sir.

2 Q. After the walking tour, what did you do next?

3 A. I departed Dillard's.

4 Q. Do you recall what month it was that you started

5 at Dillard's?

6 A. No.

7 Q. It was about two years ago?

8 A. I would say over two years.

9 Q. Was it in the summertime?

10 A. I believe it was.

11 Q. Would you believe it would have been the summer

12 of 1995?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. On this day that you were interviewed by Marvie

15 Dirks, offered the job, and Darrell Haynes gave

16 you this walking tour, were you given any

17 documents?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. What documents?

20 A. Marvie Dirks handed me documents outlining

21 responsibilities, high theft areas.

22 Q. Anything else?

23 A. I can't recall besides that.

24 Q. Then when did you next report to Dillard's?

25 A. I can't recall.



43



1 Q. Within a few days?

2 A. I can't recall.

3 Q. Within a week?

4 A. I don't know.

5 Q. Would it have been as long and a month?

6 A. I don't know.

7 Q. Do you think it may have been as long as a month

8 before you showed up to begin working?

9 A. I don't know.

10 Q. What did you do the next time you came to

11 Dillard's?

12 A. Worked with another officer.

13 Q. Do you know who that was?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Do you recall approximately how long that

16 occasion lasted, how many hours?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Was it more than one hour?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Less than ten hours?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. More than three hours?

23 A. I don't know.

24 Q. During however long you were with this other

25 officer on this next occasion, were you with



44



1 that officer virtually the whole time?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did that continue for other times after you --

4 A. (Witness nods head.)

5 Q. Is your answer yes?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. How many additional times did you work with

8 another officer when you reported to work at

9 Dillard's?

10 A. I can't recall.

11 Q. Was it more than one or two more times?

12 A. I don't know.

13 Q. Could it have been as many as four or five more

14 times?

15 A. I don't know.

16 Q. What other training was provided to you by

17 Dillard's for your security position?

18 A. Just on-the-job training.

19 Q. From Darrell Haynes and other security officers?

20 A. Yes, sir.

21 Q. Was your title at Dillard's security officer?

22 A. Yes, sir.

23 Q. Is it still security officer?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Since you began working at Dillard's have you



45



1 received any formal training in security work

2 from Dillard's other than the on-the-job

3 training you referred to?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Do you recall approximately when it was that you

6 first worked a shift at Dillard's on your own?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Do you know if it was within a week of first

9 beginning your work at Dillard's?

10 A. I have no idea.

11 Q. From approximately how many Dillard's security

12 officers did you receive on-the-job training?

13 A. I have no idea.

14 Q. More than one?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. As many as three?

17 (Discussion off the record.)

18 (Recess.)

19 (Wilson Deposition Exhibits Nos. 1

20 through 4 were marked for identification.)

21 (The preceding three questions and

22 answers were read by the reporter.)

23 Q. (By Mr. Benson) Do you recall the questions

24 now?

25 A. Yes, I do.



46



1 Q. Did you receive on-the-job training from as many

2 as three Dillard's security officers?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. More than three?

5 A. It could be.

6 Q. More than five?

7 A. It could be.

8 Q. Who were the security officers you recall

9 receiving training from beside Darrell Haynes?

10 A. I cannot recall specifically.

11 Q. You can't recall any names other than Darrell

12 Haynes, is that correct?

13 A. No, correct. Because I was new at the time.

14 Q. Are any of the security officers at Dillard's

15 from whom you received on-the-job training still

16 employed as security officers at Dillard's?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. How many?

19 A. Boy, I cannot recall how many.

20 Q. Which ones that you can recall are still

21 employed at Dillard's?

22 A. Barry Martens.

23 Q. Any others?

24 A. No, I cannot recall their names.

25 Q. Did you receive on the job training from Barry



47



1 Martens?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. What did that consist of?

4 A. As with Mr. Haynes.

5 Q. Walking around and doing your duties together?

6 A. Yes, sir.

7 Q. On how many occasions did you spend a shift with

8 Barry Martens?

9 A. I cannot recall how long it was.

10 Q. More than one?

11 A. I cannot recall.

12 MS. KOCH: Mr. Wilson was telling me

13 when we stepped outside that there was something

14 else he thought was responsive to one of your

15 questions on training that he had not said, and

16 I told him if you didn't ask the question

17 specifically on it to go ahead --

18 A. I went in on my own time without getting paid to

19 be around the other officers.

20 Q. (By Mr. Benson) On how many occasions?

21 A. I cannot recall.

22 Q. More than once?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. More than three times?

25 A. I can't recall.



48



1 Q. What other officers did you spend your own time

2 being around?

3 A. I can't recall their names.

4 Q. Did you do this in the first few weeks of your

5 employment at Dillard's?

6 A. Probably.

7 Q. When you were hired at Dillard's did someone

8 explain your duties to you?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Who was that?

11 A. Marvie Dirks.

12 Q. What did she tell you your duties were?

13 A. As I stated earlier, on the interview session,

14 that is when she provided the documents that I

15 stated earlier.

16 Q. And was her explanation of your duties the

17 providing of documents, or did she verbally

18 explain to you what your duties were?

19 A. She did both.

20 Q. What did she say, what did she verbally explain

21 your duties as consisting of?

22 A. She went over the policy and procedure that she

23 had in front of her, she read it out loud, line

24 by line, while I read along.

25 Q. I am going to show you what's been marked as



49



1 Wilson Deposition Exhibit 1. Is that a copy of

2 the document you are referring to?

3 A. I don't know. I can't recall if this was the

4 one.

5 Q. Have you seen what is Deposition Exhibit 1

6 before?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. What is your understanding as to what that

9 document is?

10 A. It's the rules and procedures for security

11 personnel.

12 Q. When did you first see that document?

13 A. The day that I was interviewed.

14 Q. I show you what has been marked Wilson

15 Deposition Exhibit 2, do you recognize that

16 document?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. What is it?

19 A. It's objectives for security officers at

20 Dillard's Oak Park.

21 Q. When did you first see that document?

22 A. I don't know if I have seen -- I have seen one

23 like this. I don't know when, where, what time,

24 date.

25 Q. Did you see a document like that when you were



50



1 first hired?

2 A. Yes, and I would have to say that on the first

3 one you handed me also on Document No. 1. I

4 have seen something similar to that, and I don't

5 know exactly which one it was on the date of my

6 interview.

7 Q. Are there more than one Dillard's documents

8 entitled rules and procedures for security

9 personnel?

10 A. I have no idea.

11 Q. Have you ever seen more than one? Have you ever

12 seen two documents entitled rules and procedures

13 for security personnel?

14 A. I see that on my review.

15 Q. On your annual review?

16 A. Yes, sir.

17 Q. It says rules and procedure for security

18 personnel?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Or one is attached? When you say you see that

21 on my evaluation, what do you mean, what do you

22 see?

23 A. Personnel evaluation like I had in my interview

24 session with Marvie Dirks.

25 Q. When you have such a personnel evaluation, what



51



1 do you see?

2 A. Documents to that nature.

3 Q. Entitled rules and procedures for security

4 personnel?

5 A. Yes, sir.

6 Q. Do you know whether or not Dillard's has more

7 than one rules and procedures for security

8 personnel?

9 A. I do not know.

10 Q. Do you know whether Dillard's has more than one

11 objectives for security officers at Dillard's

12 Oak Park?

13 A. I have no idea.

14 Q. What other documents did Marvie Dirks give you

15 during the interview?

16 A. I can't recall.

17 Q. Any other documents that explained your duties

18 or your responsibilities?

19 A. I can't recall all the documentation.

20 Q. What is your understanding as to what your

21 duties and responsibilities consist of?

22 A. To provide security.

23 Q. Is that it?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. What is your understanding of what providing



52



1 security consists of?

2 A. It can be from assisting the person who has

3 fallen down the steps, lost child, assisting

4 someone to find their vehicle in the parking

5 lot that is lost, to assist in emergency

6 situations, watch people, apprehend shoplifters.

7 Q. What else do you understand your duty of

8 providing security to consist of?

9 A. I believe I explained it.

10 Q. You think that's it, you can't think of any more

11 at this time?

12 A. No, I can't recall.

13 Q. Have those always been your duties as a security

14 officer at Dillard's?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Have your responsibilities as a security officer

17 at Dillard's changed over the time that you were

18 first hired?

19 A. No.

20 Q. How often is your performance evaluated at

21 Dillard's?

22 A. I believe it's every six months.

23 Q. Who evaluates you?

24 A. Marvie Dirks.

25 Q. Is she your immediate supervisor at Dillard's?



53



1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Are there any benefits that flow to you as a

3 result of a favorable evaluation at Dillard's?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Other than continued employment, I guess?

6 A. No.

7 Q. As a result of favorable evaluations are you

8 considered for pay increases?

9 A. I have no idea.

10 Q. Have you received a pay increase since you have

11 been at Dillard's?

12 A. No.

13 Q. As a result of favorable evaluations, are you

14 called more often for scheduling assignments?

15 A. No.

16 Q. As a result of favorable evaluations, are you

17 given more favorable scheduling assignment

18 options?

19 A. I have no idea.

20 Q. Do you know whether Dillard's has any way of

21 measuring your production or your job

22 fulfillment at Dillard's?

23 A. I have no idea.

24 Q. Do you know whether Dillard's keeps track of

25 things like the number of apprehensions by a



54



1 security officer?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Do you know, are you given that data on a

4 regular basis about how many apprehensions you

5 have made?

6 A. Never.

7 Q. Do you know whether or not Dillard's keeps track

8 of merchandise recovered by each security

9 officer?

10 A. I have no idea.

11 Q. Are you ever --

12 A. Oh, I will explain that. It's in our report,

13 any items that we recover is in a written

14 report.

15 Q. You do a written report for every incident in

16 which you are involved, is that correct?

17 MS. KOCH: Object to the form of

18 question to the extent incident is vague.

19 MR. BENSON: I will withdraw that

20 question for now.

21 Q. (By Mr. Benson) Whenever you write an incident

22 report, if it involved recovering merchandise,

23 you would put that in the report, is that

24 correct?

25 A. Yes.



55



1 Q. Do you know whether or not Dillard's compiles

2 merchandise recovery data from those incident

3 reports?

4 A. I don't know.

5 Q. Do you know whether Dillard's in any way keeps

6 track of the merchandise, the amount or the

7 value of the merchandise that is recovered by

8 its security officers?

9 A. Just from our reports, that is as far as I know.

10 Q. You don't know what is done with the data in

11 your reports?

12 A. No, sir.

13 Q. What is your understanding as to how your job

14 performance is measured at Dillard's?

15 A. By my twice a year evaluation.

16 Q. What does that consist of, what is Dillard's

17 looking for in order to give you a favorable

18 evaluation?

19 A. For an evaluation, I don't know on favorable,

20 but my evaluation consists of if I answer my

21 calls, if I show up for work, and I'm not just

22 standing around.

23 Q. By show up for work, you mean for an assigned

24 schedule?

25 A. Yes, sir.



56



1 Q. If you accept an assignment, agree to be there,

2 you are evaluated on whether or not you show up?

3 A. Yes, sir.

4 Q. And by answer calls, do you mean when you are

5 called or paged?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. While you are on duty at Dillard's?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Are those usually radio calls?

10 A. It can be -- no, intercom.

11 Q. Do you wear a radio while you are on duty?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. What form of calls do you receive, both radio

14 and intercom?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. So you are evaluated on whether or not you

17 respond to the calls that are placed to you?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Thirdly, you said whether or not you are not

20 just standing around. What does that mean?

21 A. That I'm not standing just talking to

22 associates. I am on the floor letting the

23 associates know that there is a security person

24 on the floor, and I am always on the move.

25 Q. Who would make the observation about whether or



57



1 not you are always on the move as opposed to

2 just standing around?

3 A. Any associate or assistant sales manager, Marvie

4 Dirks, Mr. Rodgers.

5 Q. For your evaluation, who makes those

6 observations?

7 A. I have no idea.

8 Q. What else does your evaluation consist of

9 besides whether you show up, whether you answer

10 calls, and whether you are not just standing

11 around?

12 A. I have no idea.

13 Q. On this day in which the event that gave rise to

14 this lawsuit occurred, which I think we have

15 agreed was April 5th, 1996, do you recall the

16 incident that we are concerned about?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. On that day, do you recall approximately what

19 time you reported for duty at Dillard's?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Do you recall approximately how long you had

22 been on duty before you first observed the two

23 women who were later identified as Hampton and

24 Cooper?

25 A. No.



58



1 Q. Do you recall where you were when you first saw

2 them?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Where were you?

5 A. I was on the second level of the south Dillard's

6 store passing through the infants section on the

7 walkway.

8 Q. Where were you headed?

9 A. I was just walking the floor.

10 Q. What attracted your attention?

11 A. A baby stroller.

12 Q. Was there a baby in the baby stroller?

13 A. I don't recall.

14 Q. What about the baby stroller attracted your

15 attention?

16 A. I just watch people in the store when they have

17 baby strollers.

18 Q. Is the baby stroller suspicious, in your view?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Why is that?

21 A. People have been apprehended from concealing

22 items in baby strollers inside Dillard's.

23 MR. BENSON: Karen Cain just arrived.

24 Good morning, Karen.

25 Q. (By Mr. Benson) Have you ever apprehended



59



1 anyone at Dillard's who was concealing items of

2 Dillard's merchandise in a baby stroller?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Do you consider all people with baby strollers

5 to be potential shoplifters?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. When you noticed the baby stroller, what did you

8 do?

9 A. I stopped in the boys section and started

10 watching.

11 Q. How many people were you watching?

12 A. I was watching a young black female and an older

13 black female with small children.

14 Q. How many small children?

15 A. I think I put in my report two small children,

16 but I cannot give you the exact.

17 Q. Approximately how old were the two small

18 children?

19 A. I don't know.

20 Q. Give me your best estimate as to the range of

21 age for the younger of the two?

22 A. Not having kids, I don't know.

23 Q. How about the older of the two, approximately

24 what age range?

25 A. I don't know.



60



1 Q. Were either of the children so young as to not

2 be able to walk?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Both of the children could walk?

5 A. I don't recall.

6 Q. Did the youngest child require assistance

7 walking because of it's young age?

8 A. I can't recall.

9 Q. Do you recall what the weather was like on this

10 day?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Do you recall whether other shoppers were

13 wearing coats or jackets because of the weather?

14 A. No, I can't recall.

15 Q. Was anyone else in the infants section besides

16 the two women and the two children that you

17 observed?

18 A. I don't recall, because I was just watching

19 them.

20 Q. Was there a sales associate?

21 A. There were associates around, but not where I

22 was watching the two ladies.

23 Q. Were there sales associates in the infants

24 section?

25 A. I can't recall.



61



1 Q. How big is the infants section, give it's

2 approximate measurement in feet or yards.

3 A. It's weird shaped. I don't know their layout on

4 the square footage.

5 Q. Approximately how many counters or racks in the

6 infant section?

7 A. I have no idea.

8 Q. More than 30?

9 A. I have no idea.

10 Q. More than five?

11 A. There are more than five.

12 Q. More than ten?

13 A. I don't know what they have.

14 Q. You don't recall how many sales associates were

15 in the infant section at the time?

16 A. No, I do not.

17 Q. There was at least one?

18 A. I don't know.

19 Q. Customarily is there a sales associates assigned

20 to the infant section?

21 A. I don't know their assignments.

22 Q. Was this infant section separated from other

23 sections by pedestrian walk areas?

24 A. Where I was watching them the walkway was in

25 between the two escalators, the third floor



62



1 coming down, and then there is a walkway and

2 then they were immediately in front of the

3 walkway.

4 Q. They were on one side of the walkway and you

5 were on the other side?

6 A. Yes, sir.

7 Q. You were in the boys section they were in the

8 infant section?

9 A. Yes, sir.

10 Q. To one side as you looked was the escalators, is

11 that right?

12 A. No, they would have been on my right.

13 Q. The escalators were on your right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. The infant section was in front of you where you

16 were looking?

17 A. Directly across from me.

18 Q. What was to your left?

19 A. Boys clothes in that section.

20 Q. Boys was to your left and behind you, or in the

21 area where you were standing?

22 A. Yes, sir.

23 Q. You don't recall seeing any sales associates at

24 all around, you just don't recall whether there

25 were any or not, is that correct?



63



1 A. No, there were some.

2 Q. In the infant section?

3 A. No, I don't recall in the infant section.

4 Q. You don't recall whether there were other

5 customers in the infant section?

6 A. No, I do not.

7 Q. How long did you observe the two females with

8 the two children?

9 A. I have to refresh my memory by looking at my

10 report.

11 Q. I show you what's been marked as Deposition

12 Exhibit 3 and ask you if that is a copy of your

13 report?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Tell you what, this might be a good time on this

16 Exhibit 3, do you see the part that says

17 "narrative"? Do you see where the narrative

18 begins, it says the word "narrative." do you see

19 that?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Would you just out loud read the first sentence

22 and, where there is an abbreviation use the

23 word, like R/O, I take it, is reporting officer?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Would you read that as that reporting officer?



64



1 A. "Reporting officer was watching two black

2 females with two kids and a stroller in the

3 children's Polo by the escalator."

4 Q. Now, if you would continue reading at a slow

5 pace.

6 A. I am sorry.

7 Q. No, you did fine. But there is a tendency to

8 speed up when you are reading, because there may

9 be some question about what was written. You

10 are familiar with your handwriting. If you

11 would read that slowly, and if you get going too

12 fast the court reporter will stop you.

13 A. Go ahead?

14 Q. Yes, continue, please.

15 A. "The black female that had on a dark leather

16 coat on had one pair of dark infant pants on a

17 hanger. The other black female left the area

18 with the children. I continued to watch the

19 black female with the dark leather coat. She

20 would stop walking, kept looking around toward

21 the ceiling and looking around as if to see if

22 someone was watching her. I noticed she had

23 another item that was dark and she rolled it up

24 and kept it in her left-hand. She kept going

25 back to the Polo section, picked up some khaki



65



1 pants, started looking around again to see if

2 someone was watching. She put down the pants,

3 the khaki, still had the dark colored pants on

4 the hanger. I watched her for about 15 minutes

5 by herself. The other black female with the

6 kids showed back up. All the people in the

7 group started walking in the same area. The one

8 I had been watching bent down and picked up one

9 of the children. I noticed the dark object she

10 had rolled up was still in her left hand and was

11 now under the infant she picked up. I then

12 stopped Pam Fitzgerel to watch the females. She

13 watched them go into an open dressing room.

14 Fitzgerel came up to me and said she observed

15 the black female with the coat on put something

16 under her coat. I asked Fitzgerel again if she

17 was positive what she saw, and she again stated

18 she observed the black female of putting

19 something under her coat.

20 "Both came out of the dressing room

21 and walked over --" This copy I can't read.

22 Q. Is it perhaps "into"?

23 A. If we want to agree on that, "into." I can't

24 read it.

25 MS. KOCH: That would be my guess. My



66



1 copy might be a little bit better than yours.

2 A. Yes, it is. "-- into another department and

3 purchased some items. Fitzgerel checked the

4 dressing room and it was empty. The black

5 female with the dark coat had come out with an

6 empty hanger. She laid it down on some

7 clothes.

8 "I followed them to men's cosmetic and

9 stopped them before they left the store. I

10 identified myself as Dillard's security and

11 advised them that the one black female had been

12 observed placing something in her coat. The

13 black female pushing the baby stroller said they

14 had purchased some items and I asked to look

15 into the bag. Inside were three items and a

16 receipt for the items. The lady pushing the

17 stroller started raising her voice about me

18 stopping her outside of Dillard's. I told her

19 she was still inside the store, and was trying

20 to explain the situation. She was starting to

21 get louder and louder, and I asked to calm

22 down. She kept interrupting me and --" I can't

23 read the next word. "-- talked loud. I told

24 her if she wouldn't calm down I would have to

25 call Overland Park Police Department. She said



67



1 go ahead. I even asked her if she wanted to go

2 to the office to talk, and she told the other

3 female she was going to return all the items

4 because she didn't need this. And she spent

5 $10,000 here last year. She wanted to use a

6 phone. I told her a pay phone was just outside

7 the door. She then stated something about

8 customer service and I advised her it was on the

9 third floor. I watched them go into the men's

10 department, and I left the area."

11 Q. And I then left the area, right?

12 A. Okay. "The female wearing the dark coat never

13 said a word. I did not look in her purse she

14 was carrying on her shoulder."

15 Q. Then it's signed, is that T.J. Wilson?

16 A. Wilson.

17 Q. When did you write this report?

18 A. Immediately.

19 Q. Within minutes after the incident?

20 A. Yes, sir.

21 Q. To whom did you give the report?

22 A. To Marvie Dirks.

23 Q. The question that prompted this was how long did

24 you observe these two woman, and in your report

25 I believe you stated you observed them for about



68



1 about 15 minutes, is that right?

2 A. No, I stated that I watched the young female for

3 approximately 15 minutes.

4 Q. And that was in the infant section?

5 A. In the Polo section.

6 Q. Is the Polo section next to the infant section?

7 A. It's in the infant section.

8 Q. It's a subpart of the infant section?

9 A. Yes, sir.

10 Q. Did you stay in the boys section during that

11 time?

12 A. Yes, I did.

13 Q. Were you visible to her or were you concealing

14 yourself?

15 A. Concealing.

16 Q. How were you concealing yourself?

17 A. I was behind some clothes or fixtures.

18 Q. Were you moving around?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. If a person in the infant section had been

21 looking in your direction, could that person

22 have seen you from time to time as you moved

23 around?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. At any time did you crouch down or do anything



69



1 that was not normal walking around in order to

2 conceal yourself?

3 A. I can't recall.

4 Q. Did you alert anyone else that you were watching

5 a woman with a suspicious baby stroller --

6 A. No.

7 Q. -- during this 15-minute period?

8 MS. KOCH: I object to the extent you

9 are mischaracterizing what he said in the

10 report.

11 Q. (By Mr. Benson) You may answer.

12 A. I was watching the young black female for 15

13 minutes.

14 Q. And she had the baby stroller?

15 A. No.

16 Q. The baby stroller had gone -- had left with

17 someone else?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. The older of the two females had departed with

20 the stroller?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And the two children?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. So only the younger female was left?

25 A. Yes.



70



1 Q. For 15 minutes what did she do?

2 A. As I stated earlier in my report that she kept

3 looking around to see if possibly somebody was

4 watching her and she would pick up an item and

5 then look around to see if somebody was

6 watching.

7 Q. What did she do with the item after she picked

8 it up?

9 A. Well, as I stated earlier, she had one on a

10 hanger and then she had something that was

11 rolled up in her hand.

12 Q. Do you remember anything about what she did that

13 is not in your report?

14 A. I don't understand.

15 Q. This incident took place now about a year and

16 five months ago. Do you have any independent

17 recollection of what happened on this occasion

18 other than what you have written in your report?

19 A. This is refreshing my memory.

20 Q. Yes. In addition to what your report says that

21 refreshes your recollection, do you have an

22 independent memory of anything else.

23 MS. KOCH: I object to the extent your

24 question is vague. The witness has testified

25 that he remembers the incident, and to the



71



1 extent you are trying to foreclose the witness

2 from responding to any questions, I object.

3 Q. (By Mr. Benson) You may answer.

4 A. I don't recall.

5 Q. How many items of clothing during this 15

6 minutes did the younger female look at?

7 A. Numerous.

8 Q. What is your best estimate as to what numerous

9 means?

10 A. More than one.

11 Q. More than three?

12 A. More than one.

13 Q. More than five?

14 A. More than one.

15 Q. You don't recall, is that correct?

16 A. I do not recall.

17 Q. Do you know where the other members of the

18 party, the older female and the two children

19 went?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Do you recall in which direction they went?

22 A. They went out toward the cosmetic area.

23 Q. Would that have been to your left or to your

24 right?

25 A. To my right.



72



1 Q. Which direction was the escalators?

2 A. To my right.

3 Q. Do you recall whether or not they went up or

4 down an escalator?

5 A. They did not go down.

6 Q. There is not a down escalator there?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. There is?

9 A. Right there.

10 Q. Is there a up escalator there, too?

11 A. No, it's around the corner.

12 Q. Do you recall where they went? They went toward

13 cosmetics, did you see them beyond that?

14 A. No.

15 Q. As to the two children, approximately how tall

16 were the two children?

17 A. I don't have a height, I don't recall.

18 Q. Were both of them shorter, say, than the waist

19 of the younger female?

20 A. I believe one was.

21 Q. And what about the second one, the other one?

22 A. I don't recall.

23 Q. Do you recall whether that one was shorter than

24 the waist, approximately as tall as the waist of

25 the younger female, or taller than the waist?



73



1 A. I don't recall.

2 Q. Do you recall whether either of children were as

3 tall as the shoulder of the younger female?

4 A. I don't believe there was one.

5 Q. Do you recall whether the children were boys or

6 girls?

7 A. No, I do not.

8 Q. Do you recall how either of the children were

9 dressed, what they were wearing?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Were they wearing pants or dresses?

12 A. I don't recall.

13 Q. Were they wearing a jumpsuit or a combination

14 outfit?

15 A. I don't recall.

16 Q. Did they have coats or jackets, the children?

17 A. I don't recall.

18 Q. As to the older of the two women, the one who

19 left, do you recall how she was dressed?

20 A. I don't recall.

21 Q. Do you recall whether she was wearing pants or a

22 dress?

23 A. I do not recall.

24 Q. Do you recall what color her clothing was?

25 A. No.



74



1 Q. Do you recall whether her hair was short or

2 long?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Do you recall whether she was wearing any

5 jewelry?

6 A. I do not recall.

7 Q. Do you recall whether she was wearing a coat or

8 jacket?

9 A. I do not recall.

10 Q. Do you recall anything about her other than that

11 she was a black female?

12 A. That she was pushing a baby stroller and had

13 some children with her.

14 Q. Do you recall anything about her appearance

15 other than that she was black?

16 A. No.

17 Q. The younger of the two females, the one who

18 stayed in the infant section, how was she

19 dressed?

20 A. She had a black coat on, a dark leather coat.

21 Q. Was this black coat waist length or thigh length

22 or knee or how long?

23 A. I don't recall the length.

24 Q. Did this black leather coat have a belt on it,

25 do you recall?



75



1 A. I do not recall.

2 Q. Was it single breasted or double breasted?

3 A. I do not recall.

4 Q. Did it have pockets?

5 A. I do not recall.

6 Q. Was the younger female wearing the black leather

7 coat the whole time?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Did you ever see her take it off?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Did this black leather coat have a collar?

12 A. I do not recall.

13 Q. Would you describe it as a car coat or a rain

14 coat style?

15 A. Just a dark leather coat.

16 Q. Do you recall whether this younger female

17 wearing the black leather coat was wearing pants

18 or a dress?

19 A. I do not recall.

20 Q. Whether she was wearing shoes or boots?

21 A. I do not recall.

22 Q. Tennis shoes?

23 A. I do not recall.

24 Q. Do you recall what she was wearing in terms of a

25 shirt or blouse?



76



1 A. No.

2 Q. Do you recall anything about her appearance

3 other than that she was a black female wearing a

4 black leather coat?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Do you recall whether her hair was short or

7 long?

8 A. I do not recall.

9 Q. Whether she was wearing jewelry?

10 A. I do not recall.

11 Q. When the stroller caught your attention as you

12 were walking through, where did you say you were

13 headed?

14 A. I was walking the store.

15 Q. In which direction were you headed?

16 A. I was walking north.

17 Q. Were you walking toward a particular section?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Just walking?

20 A. Yes, sir.

21 Q. When the stroller caught your attention, how

22 long after you noticed the stroller did the

23 older woman and the two children leave the

24 infant section?

25 A. It wasn't immediate.



77



1 Q. Did you watch them for 30 seconds, a minute and

2 a half, something like that, before the older

3 woman and the two children left the section?

4 A. It was longer than that.

5 Q. About how long was it?

6 A. It was longer than a minute and a half. I don't

7 recall the exact time on it.

8 Q. Was it as long as four or five minutes?

9 A. It could be.

10 Q. After the woman in the stroller and the two

11 children left, that's when you then watched the

12 younger female for about 15 minutes, is that

13 correct?

14 A. Correct.

15 Q. So your entire observation period from the time

16 you saw the stroller until the end of the

17 15-minute observation period could have been as

18 long as about 20 minutes?

19 A. It could.

20 Q. But you know it was more than 16 1/2 minutes?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Could it have been longer than 20 minutes, or is

23 it probable that it was longer than 20 minutes?

24 A. I don't recall.

25 Q. During this period that was from a minute and a



78



1 half to about five minutes that you observed all

2 four of the people and the stroller in the

3 infant section, what were they doing, what were

4 the adults doing?

5 A. Looking at clothes.

6 Q. Holding them up to the children?

7 A. No.

8 Q. What were they doing as they looked at the

9 clothes, were they taking them off racks,

10 putting them back on?

11 A. They were looking at clothes, and the young

12 black female was looking around to see if

13 somebody was watching.

14 Q. You don't know what was in her mind at that

15 time, do you?

16 A. No.

17 Q. So you don't know why she was looking around?

18 A. Correct.

19 Q. While she was looking around, the older black

20 female was looking at clothes?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. The younger black female was not looking at

23 clothes?

24 A. She would look at clothes briefly, and then

25 start looking around.



79



1 Q. When she looked at clothes how did she look at

2 clothes, what did she do to look at clothes?

3 A. She picked an item up, glanced at it, hold it in

4 her hand, and looked around and it appeared to

5 me to see if somebody was watching.

6 Q. And then put the item back down?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. During this period that lasted a minute and a

9 half to five minutes, while the four were there

10 with the stroller, about how many items of

11 clothing did the older black female look at?

12 A. I don't recall.

13 Q. More than four or five?

14 A. I don't recall.

15 Q. Do you know how many the younger black female

16 looked at?

17 A. No.

18 Q. More than four or five items?

19 A. I don't recall.

20 Q. Do you recall what items of clothing they looked

21 at?

22 A. As I stated in my report earlier, the young

23 female had a dark colored pants on a hanger, and

24 then picked up some khaki pants.

25 Q. The third line of your narrative that begins,



80



1 "That had on a dark leather coat," do you see

2 that?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Then it goes on to read, "That had on a dark

5 leather coat on, and had one pair of dark infant

6 pants."

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Is that what it reads?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Now the word "dark," is that in your

11 handwriting, toward the end of that third line?

12 A. It appears to be my handwriting.

13 Q. It appears to have been added after you wrote

14 the rest of it, do you see that?

15 A. I could have put it in while I was writing that

16 line.

17 Q. You wrote the line and went back and decided you

18 better add the word "dark?"

19 A. No. I probably made a correction while I was

20 writing it.

21 Q. Do you recall making this correction?

22 A. I don't recall.

23 Q. Is it in your handwriting?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Is it your testimony that the word "dark" was



81



1 written in by you by the time you had completed

2 and signed this report?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. When you say she had a pair of dark infant pants

5 on a hanger, she was holding it by the hanger?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. This was the older of the two women, is that

8 right, that you are referring to here?

9 A. No.

10 Q. This is the younger of the two?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. She had this one item of clothing, while the

13 others were still there, is that correct? This

14 one dark pair of infant pants on a hanger you

15 are referring to was while the older woman and

16 the two children were still there, is that

17 correct?

18 A. I don't recall if she was holding it.

19 Q. You say she had one pair of black infant pants

20 on a hanger. What do you mean by "had?"

21 A. In her possession.

22 Q. She had it in her possession?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Do you recall how she had it in her possession?

25 A. On a hanger.



82



1 Q. Do you recall how the hanger and pants were in

2 her possession, was it folded over her arm, was

3 she holding it?

4 A. Holding it.

5 Q. Holding the hanger?

6 A. Yes, sir.

7 Q. She was holding -- the younger female was

8 holding the hanger with one pair of dark infant

9 pants on it, while the older female and the

10 children and the stroller were still in the

11 infant section, is that correct?

12 A. I don't recall.

13 Q. Your report goes on to say, "The other black

14 female left the area with the children."

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. You wrote that sentence -- that sentence comes

17 after the sentence where you say the younger

18 female had a pair of dark infant pants on a

19 hanger. So is it your best recollection that

20 the younger female had the pants on a hanger

21 while the others in her party were still in the

22 infant section?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And the other black female then left with the

25 children, and you continued to watch the female



83



1 with the black leather coat?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. That's when the 15-minute observation period

4 began when the others left, is that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. During this 15 minutes, did you notice the young

7 black female pick up and look at any other

8 merchandise other than the black pair of pants

9 on a hanger?

10 A. The khaki pants.

11 Q. Okay. Anything else that you remember?

12 A. And another item that was dark that she had

13 rolled up and she kept it in her left hand.

14 Q. Do you know what this dark rolled up item in her

15 left hand was?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Do you even know if it was Dillard's

18 merchandise?

19 A. No.

20 Q. She picked up some khaki pants. Were they on a

21 hanger?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. You believe the khaki pants to have been

24 Dillard's merchandise?

25 A. Yes.



84



1 Q. What did she do with those khaki pants?

2 A. She put down the khaki pants.

3 Q. By putting down, you mean she hung them back up

4 on the rack?

5 A. I don't know if she laid them down or hung them

6 back up, but she didn't have them any more.

7 Q. You don't recall what she did with them?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Then she still had the dark colored pants on the

10 hanger, is that correct, after she put the khaki

11 pants down?

12 A. She still had the dark colored pants on a

13 hanger.

14 Q. Now, other than the dark colored pants on a

15 hanger and the khaki pants that she picked up

16 and put down, do you recall any other items of

17 Dillard's merchandise that she handled during

18 this 15 minutes you were observing her?

19 A. She was looking at numerous clothing items.

20 Q. Numerous meaning?

21 A. More than one.

22 Q. But not necessarily more than five?

23 A. I can't recall the exact number.

24 Q. You don't recall whether -- or do you recall

25 what items of clothing she looked at, were they



85



1 pants, shirts, jackets?

2 A. No, I did not.

3 Q. During this 15 minutes she continually was

4 looking around, looking for other people, you

5 presume, or looking to see if she was watched?

6 A. She did that in addition to looking at the

7 clothes.

8 Q. During this time that she was looking around and

9 looking at the clothes, did you yourself see her

10 conceal any Dillard's merchandise on or about

11 her person or her belongings?

12 A. No.

13 Q. During this 15 minutes, how many other customers

14 came through the infant section, do you recall?

15 A. I do not recall.

16 Q. Some did, isn't that correct?

17 A. I don't recall.

18 Q. You don't recall if any customers came through?

19 A. I don't recall.

20 Q. Do you recall if there were any sales associates

21 who were in or around the infant section during

22 this 15-minute observation period?

23 A. I don't recall in the infant section.

24 Q. Do you recall whether or not the younger female

25 was helped by or consulted with a sales



86



1 associate during that 15-minute period?

2 A. She was not.

3 Q. Did a sales associates approach her and ask if

4 the younger female needed any help?

5 A. Not that I recall.

6 Q. You don't recall seeing a sales associate in the

7 infant section during that 15 minutes, is that

8 correct?

9 A. Correct.

10 Q. After the 15 minutes ended, the other female

11 with the kids came back into the infant section,

12 is that correct?

13 A. Correct.

14 Q. Pushing the stroller?

15 A. Correct.

16 Q. Were either of the kids riding in the stroller?

17 A. I don't recall.

18 Q. Were they carrying any packages or Dillard's

19 sacks?

20 A. Not that I recall.

21 Q. What were they carrying when they came back?

22 A. She was pushing the baby stroller.

23 Q. Other than pushing the baby stroller, were any

24 of them carrying anything?

25 A. I believe purses.



87



1 Q. How many purses was she carrying when she came

2 back?

3 A. I do not recall.

4 Q. Did each of them have a purse, each of the two

5 black females?

6 A. I don't recall.

7 Q. Why did you mention purses, do you remember

8 seeing purses?

9 A. I think in my report that I stated when I read

10 it to you.

11 Q. In the very last line said you did not look in

12 the purse the younger one was carrying on her

13 shoulder?

14 A. Correct.

15 Q. Do you recall the older woman, when she was

16 coming back pushing the stroller whether or not

17 she had or was carrying a purse?

18 A. I do not recall.

19 Q. What do you recall as to the location of the

20 purse, if any, of the younger female during this

21 15 minutes you were observing her by herself?

22 A. On her shoulder.

23 Q. What color was it?

24 A. I do not recall.

25 Q. Do you recall if it was brown or black?



88



1 A. I do not recall.

2 Q. Light or dark?

3 A. I do not recall.

4 Q. Cloth or leather?

5 A. I do not recall.

6 Q. Large or small?

7 A. I do not recall.

8 Q. Is it bigger than your open hand?

9 A. I do not recall.

10 Q. Was it a clutch purse?

11 A. I do not recall.

12 Q. Was it a large bag?

13 A. I do not recall.

14 Q. If you don't recall, you wouldn't recognize it

15 if you saw it again, would you?

16 A. That's correct.

17 Q. Is it true that if you saw the clothes the

18 younger female was wearing you would not likely

19 recognize them again?

20 A. I would not.

21 Q. Would you recognize the black leather coat if

22 you saw it again?

23 A. No.

24 Q. When the older black female came back with the

25 two children and the stroller, did the two women



89



1 speak to each other?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Could you hear what they said?

4 A. No.

5 Q. How far away from them were you?

6 A. About 25 feet.

7 Q. Is that about how far you were away from them

8 most of the time during your observation?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Did either of them show anything to the other?

11 A. Clothing.

12 Q. Where did the clothing come from that they

13 showed?

14 A. In that section.

15 Q. They resumed looking at clothing in the infant

16 section?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. The younger black woman still had the dark pants

19 on the hanger. Did she show those to the older

20 woman?

21 A. I don't recall.

22 Q. How long did you observe the two women and the

23 children after they rejoined in the infant

24 section?

25 A. Minutes. I cannot tell you. It was a short



90



1 time.

2 Q. More than two minutes?

3 A. It could have been.

4 Q. More than five minutes?

5 A. I don't recall.

6 MS. KOCH: Excuse me. When you reach

7 a good breaking point, I need a real quick

8 break.

9 MR. BENSON: Okay.

10 (A recess was taken.)

11 Q. (By Mr. Benson) Mr. Wilson, on this occasion

12 what were you wearing?

13 A. Plain clothes.

14 Q. What did that consist of that day?

15 A. I don't remember what I had on.

16 Q. Were you wearing a tie and jacket?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Were you wearing a open neck shirt?

19 A. I don't recall what I had on.

20 Q. Tennis shoes?

21 A. I don't know.

22 Q. Do you recall what kind of pants you had on?

23 A. Jeans.

24 Q. Do you recall if you were wearing a sweater or a

25 jacket over your shirt?



91



1 A. I don't recall.

2 Q. I see you are wearing glasses. Do you

3 customarily wear glasses?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Do you ever wear contact lenses?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Are your glasses prescribed for nearsightedness

8 or farsightedness?

9 A. For reading.

10 Q. So I guess if you have to wear glasses when you

11 are reading, that means you are farsighted, and

12 you need glasses for your short distance

13 reading.

14 Were you wearing glasses at the time

15 you were observing the women in the infant

16 section on this day in question?

17 A. No.

18 Q. During this short period of time that could have

19 been from two to five minutes, did the women

20 spend any of their time minding the children or

21 keeping track of the children?

22 A. I don't recall.

23 Q. During this period of time when the women had

24 rejoined each other in the infant section, did

25 they try on any clothes while you were observing



92



1 them?

2 A. No.

3 Q. While the two women were back together in the

4 infant section, do you recall if there were

5 other customers in the infant section?

6 A. I don't recall.

7 Q. Do you recall if there were any sales associates

8 in the infant section?

9 A. I don't recall.

10 Q. Were you continuing to attempt to conceal

11 yourself in the boys section?

12 A. I was still in the boys section.

13 Q. Were you trying to conceal yourself from the two

14 women who were back together in the infant

15 section?

16 A. I don't recall.

17 Q. You had been trying to conceal yourself during

18 the 15 minutes that you watched the younger

19 woman alone, is that correct?

20 A. That was concealing off and on, because I would

21 walk around.

22 Q. So anyone in the infant section who had been

23 observing could have seen you off and on walking

24 around in the boys section?

25 A. Yes.



93



1 Q. The younger female could have seen you off and

2 on as she was being observed by you during this

3 15 minutes, is that correct?

4 MS. KOCH: Object to the question to

5 the extent it calls for speculation. You may go

6 ahead and answer.

7 A. I can't answer that for her.

8 Q. (By Mr. Benson) Was she in a position during

9 the 15 minutes you were observing her to see

10 you?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Why is that, what obscured her vision of you?

13 A. She really wasn't looking my way. She was

14 avoiding me, where I was.

15 Q. You say she was avoiding looking at you?

16 A. No. Where I was, not me in particular.

17 Q. You say it's your belief she was avoiding

18 looking at the area in which you were standing?

19 A. Where I was observing her.

20 Q. On what basis do you believe that she was

21 avoiding looking at the area from which you were

22 observing her?

23 A. I can't answer that for her.

24 Q. You just told me you thought she was avoiding

25 you, so that puts some motivation in her mind.



94



1 You don't really have any basis for that

2 motivation, do you?

3 A. No.

4 Q. All you know is -- is it your testimony now that

5 during that 15 minutes she never once looked

6 over at the boys section where you were located?

7 A. We never made eye contact.

8 Q. Did she ever look over toward the boys section

9 from which you were observing her?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. You don't know whether or not she saw you?

12 A. I can't answer that for her.

13 Q. You were not, throughout this 15 minutes, trying

14 to conceal yourself from her, were you?

15 A. I was moving.

16 Q. My question is, were you trying to conceal

17 yourself from her throughout this 15 minutes

18 that you were observing her alone in the infant

19 section?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. How much of that 15 minutes were you trying to

22 conceal yourself?

23 A. I can't recall minutes.

24 Q. As much as half the time were you trying to

25 conceal yourself?



95



1 A. I pretty well stayed in that area.

2 Q. I understand you stayed in that area, but I am

3 asking you while you stayed in that area were

4 you trying to conceal yourself?

5 A. And I stated, yes.

6 Q. Were you trying to conceal yourself most of the

7 time you were there, all of the time you were

8 there, or just some of the time?

9 A. I can't recall.

10 Q. Can you recall whether or not you attempted to

11 conceal yourself for every minute of the 15

12 minutes you were there?

13 A. I can't recall.

14 Q. Are you saying you may have tried to conceal

15 yourself for the entire 15 minutes?

16 A. I can't recall.

17 Q. And you may not have tried to conceal yourself

18 at all during the 15 minutes, because you can't

19 recall, right?

20 A. No. I stated earlier to a question you asked

21 me, yes, I had concealed.

22 Q. For some part of the time of the 15 minutes?

23 A. Correct.

24 Q. You just can't remember how much of that time

25 you tried to conceal yourself?



96



1 A. Correct.

2 Q. It could have been for as little as a minute or

3 as much as the entire 15 minutes, is that

4 correct?

5 A. I don't know the exact time.

6 Q. I know you don't know the exact time. I am

7 asking for your best recollection. Within the

8 range from one minute to 15 minutes, how much

9 during that 15 minutes did you attempt to

10 conceal yourself?

11 A. I cannot recall the time.

12 Q. Is it your best judgment that you were concealed

13 more than half of that 15 minutes?

14 A. I can't recall.

15 Q. Do you have a judgment as to whether or not you

16 could have tried to conceal yourself for 13 or

17 14 minutes of the 15 minutes?

18 A. Restate the question.

19 Q. Do you have a judgment, a recollection, as to

20 whether or not you may have tried to conceal

21 yourself in the boys section for as long as 13,

22 14 or 15 minutes?

23 A. No, I can't recall.

24 Q. After the older woman and two children and the

25 stroller rejoined the younger woman for the



97



1 short period of time, which could have been

2 about two to five minutes, did you remain about

3 25 feet away from them?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Do you recall whether that period of time, the

6 two to five minute short interval, you were a

7 attempting to conceal yourself?

8 A. I don't recall.

9 Q. Do you recall whether you walked around at all

10 during that two to five minutes?

11 A. I don't recall.

12 Q. Do you recall whether or not the two women were

13 in a position to see you if they had looked

14 during that two to five minutes?

15 A. I don't recall.

16 Q. At the end of that two to five minutes, was it

17 you who departed the area?

18 A. I never departed the area.

19 Q. At the end of that two to five minutes, is that

20 when you stopped Pam Fitzgerel?

21 A. I stopped Pam Fitzgerel when all parties were

22 going to a fitting room.

23 Q. After the short interval you described when the

24 two women rejoined each other?

25 A. Yes, sir.



98



1 Q. That's the two- to five-minute period we have

2 been talking about?

3 A. Yes, sir.

4 Q. So approximately two to five minutes after the

5 older woman rejoined the younger woman, you

6 stopped Pam Fitzgerel?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. During this short interval, this two- to

9 five-minute period, you wrote in your report

10 that all the people in the group started walking

11 in the same area?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Describe just what they were doing when they

14 were walking in the same area, what were they

15 doing as they were walking?

16 A. Just walking and looking at clothes.

17 Q. Picking things up, putting them down, walking,

18 picking things up, looking?

19 A. I can't recall exactly, but walking in the area

20 looking at clothes.

21 Q. Do you recall whether or not they picked any

22 items of clothing up?

23 A. I do not recall.

24 Q. Do you recall whether or not they held any items

25 of clothing on a hanger other than this dark



99



1 pair of pants that the younger woman was

2 apparently still carrying?

3 A. I don't recall.

4 Q. Do you recall whether or not they pushed hangers

5 apart to look at items hanging on racks?

6 A. I don't recall.

7 Q. Do you recall whether or not they looked through

8 stacks of clothing stacked on shelves or

9 displays?

10 A. I didn't see them look through stacks of

11 clothes.

12 Q. What do you recall about how they looked at

13 clothes as they walked around this area during

14 this short interval?

15 A. Just stop and look.

16 Q. Did they touch any of them?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Hold any up to the children?

19 A. I don't recall.

20 Q. You next write in your report, "The one I had

21 been watching," by that you are referring to the

22 younger of the two?

23 A. Yes, sir.

24 Q. "The one I had been watching bent down and

25 picked up one of the children," do you recall



100



1 that?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And did she pick up the smaller or the larger of

4 two children?

5 A. I believe it was the smaller child.

6 Q. At that time do you recall anything that the

7 child was doing that caused the mother to pick

8 the child up?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Had the child asked to be picked up?

11 A. No. I don't recall.

12 Q. Had you seen the child make any motions like

13 hold its arms up?

14 A. I don't recall.

15 Q. Were you still too far away to hear any

16 conversation between the younger woman and the

17 child?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Could you tell whether or not they were talking,

20 or do you recall?

21 A. I don't recall.

22 Q. When the younger woman picked up one of the

23 children, you write next, "I noticed the dark

24 object she had rolled up was still in her left

25 hand and was now under the infant she picked



101



1 up." That's what you wrote?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. You still don't know what this dark object was,

4 do you?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Do you know what color it was?

7 A. Dark colored.

8 Q. I mean was it a dark blue, dark brown, black?

9 A. Dark.

10 Q. You don't know?

11 A. Dark.

12 Q. Do you know whether it was made out of soft

13 material, like cotton or wool, or whether it was

14 made out of a slick material like nylon, do you

15 recall anything about it?

16 A. It did not appear to be slick.

17 Q. So this is a dark non-slick material of some

18 kind, it was a cloth of some kind, I take it,

19 something soft that could be rolled up?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. You still don't know whether or not it was

22 Dillard's merchandise, is that correct?

23 A. I assumed it was.

24 Q. You didn't know that, did you?

25 A. I assumed it was.



102



1 Q. Had you seen it taken off a rack anywhere?

2 A. No.

3 Q. She still was carrying the hanger with the pants

4 on them, correct?

5 A. I don't recall if she still had that in her

6 hand.

7 Q. There was a time that you saw this dark rolled

8 up item and the pants on the hanger in her

9 possession at the same time?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. So you know that this rolled up item was not the

12 pants from the hanger, correct?

13 A. I have no idea.

14 Q. Since you saw them both at the same time, it's

15 highly unlikely that they are the same item,

16 isn't that correct?

17 A. I understand your question now.

18 Q. And you agree?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. So before she was rejoined by the older woman,

21 she had these pants on the hanger, still had the

22 dark colored pants on the hanger, and she had

23 this other item that was dark and rolled up, she

24 had those two items?

25 A. Yes.



103



1 Q. When the older woman rejoined her, she still had

2 at least the dark rolled up item, is that

3 correct?

4 A. Correct.

5 Q. You don't know whether or not she was still

6 holding the dark pants on the hanger, or you

7 don't recall, or do you?

8 A. I don't recall.

9 Q. You don't recall seeing her put the hanger down

10 that had the dark pants on it?

11 A. No.

12 Q. You don't recall seeing her hang it back up?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Hand it to the other woman when she rejoined

15 them?

16 A. No.

17 Q. You don't recall what she did with it when she

18 picked up the child?

19 A. She didn't have it in her hand when she picked

20 the child up.

21 Q. She did not have it in her hand?

22 A. Correct.

23 Q. Do you recall whether she laid it down next to

24 the child while she picked the child up?

25 A. I do not know.



104



1 Q. After she picked up the child, do you know

2 whether she then picked up the hanger with the

3 dark pants on it again?

4 A. She did not.

5 Q. Now the dark rolled up item was under the

6 infant, and then you next -- that she had picked

7 up, and then you write, "I then stopped Pam

8 Fitzgerel to watch the females," is that

9 correct?

10 A. Correct.

11 Q. Was Pam Fitzgerel just happening by at that

12 time?

13 A. She was working in the boys department.

14 Q. Where is the boys department -- oh, the boys

15 department is where you were standing?

16 A. Yes, sir.

17 Q. Had she been working there throughout this 17 to

18 20 minutes that you had been observing them?

19 A. I don't know what she was doing.

20 Q. Was this the first -- at the time you stopped

21 her, was that the first time you had seen her?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. To get this time right, before the women

24 separated you had observed them from one and a

25 half to five minutes, then you observed for 15



105



1 minutes, then when they came back together you

2 observed for about two to five minutes, is that

3 correct?

4 A. Correct.

5 Q. Approximately?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Up to the time you stopped Pam Fitzgerel to

8 watch the females. Then you wrote, "She watched

9 them go into an open dressing room." Did you

10 also watch them go into an open dressing room?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Was the dressing room a dressing room in the

13 infant section?

14 A. For boys.

15 Q. Did they have to cross the pedestrian aisle to

16 get to the dressing room?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. So they were coming toward you?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did they walk past you?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Did you sort of move away from them as they were

23 headed toward the dressing room?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did you try to maintain the approximately 25



106



1 foot separation from them?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Were you able to hear them as they entered the

4 dressing room?

5 A. I could tell they were speaking. I could not

6 hear what they were saying.

7 Q. What were they carrying to the dressing room?

8 A. The young black female had that dark rolled up

9 item under the infant that she picked up, or the

10 child she picked up. That went into the

11 dressing area, and also there was some

12 additional clothes, I believe, that the older

13 female had that was taken in there.

14 Q. The older female was taking clothes in on

15 hangers?

16 A. I don't recall.

17 Q. Across her arm?

18 A. I don't recall.

19 Q. Carrying them?

20 A. I don't recall.

21 Q. Do you remember what items of clothing they

22 were?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Do you remember how many there were?

25 A. No.



107



1 Q. What colors any of them were?

2 A. No.

3 Q. When they went into the dressing room, was there

4 a door on the dressing room?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Did both of the adults and the children go into

7 the dressing room?

8 A. I don't know.

9 Q. Were you watching them at that time?

10 A. I had partial visual on them.

11 Q. Why only partial?

12 A. Because someone was standing in the doorway.

13 Q. Who was that someone?

14 A. I don't recall.

15 Q. A customer?

16 A. No. It was one of the females.

17 Q. Either the older or the younger female was

18 standing in the open doorway?

19 A. When I last saw them, that's where they were,

20 yes, sir.

21 Q. And then the doorway closed, the door closed?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Was the door ever closed to the dressing room

24 that you observed?

25 A. Not that I observed.



108



1 Q. How long were they in the dressing room?

2 A. I don't recall the amount of time. It was not

3 an enormous amount of time.

4 Q. Five or ten minutes?

5 A. I don't believe it was more than five minutes.

6 Q. Four or five minutes, approximately?

7 A. I don't think it was more than five minutes.

8 Q. Was it less than four minutes?

9 A. I do not know.

10 Q. Less than two minutes?

11 A. No, it was not less than two minutes.

12 Q. Less than three minutes?

13 A. I have no idea.

14 Q. Two to five minutes, we can agree to that, is

15 that correct? You know it was not less than two

16 and you don't think it was more than five?

17 A. No, it could be more than five. I am just

18 approximating it.

19 Q. While they were in the dressing room, whoever

20 was in there, did you see the older black female

21 or the younger black female or the two children

22 in the boys section or the infants section?

23 A. No.

24 Q. And the person who was standing in the doorway

25 of the dressing room, did that person have her



109



1 back to you?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. So it was either the younger female or the older

4 female?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Was a sales associate assisting them at that

7 time?

8 A. Pam Fitzgerel.

9 Q. Did Pam Fitzgerel go into the dressing room with

10 them?

11 A. She went into the fitting area, at the doorway

12 into the fitting area.

13 Q. The door remained open while she was in the

14 fitting area, while Pam Fitzgerel was in the

15 fitting area?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. As you are standing observing this dressing

18 room, can you picture in your mind that there is

19 a black female standing there with her back to

20 you in the doorway?

21 A. I just know it was a female.

22 Q. With her back to you?

23 A. Correct.

24 Q. You don't know whether it was the taller or the

25 shorter of black females?



110



1 A. No.

2 Q. You do believe it was one of these two black

3 females you had been observing?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. It wasn't another black female?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Do you recall whether or not you were looking at

8 the back of a black leather coat?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Did you observe the area of the dressing room as

11 long the black females were using it at this

12 time, whether it was two or five or six minutes,

13 however long it was?

14 A. In the fitting room, in the fitting area,

15 because I even moved while Pam assisted.

16 Q. Where did you move to?

17 A. Just in the boys section there.

18 Q. To get a different view in the fitting area?

19 A. To see if I could.

20 Q. How many dressing rooms are there in the fitting

21 area, three or four?

22 A. I think more than five.

23 Q. Was anyone else using a dressing room while you

24 were there?

25 A. I have no idea.



111



1 Q. Were any other sales associates in the fitting

2 area while Pam Fitzgerel was back there?

3 A. I do not recall.

4 Q. Did the black female who was standing in the

5 door of the dressing room in the fitting area

6 stand there as long as you were observing her?

7 A. I don't recall.

8 Q. You don't recall whether or not part of the time

9 the female who was standing in the doorway when

10 you observed her went on into the dressing room?

11 A. I don't recall.

12 Q. Do you know whether or not Pam Fitzgerel went

13 into the dressing room?

14 A. She went into the fitting room area.

15 Q. Yes, but did she go into the dressing room?

16 A. I do not know.

17 Q. Were you in an area where you could have

18 observed her if she went into the dressing room

19 at all times? I didn't say that right.

20 Were you at all times in a position

21 where you could see her if she went into the

22 fitting room?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Among these people you are observing, we now

25 have five people there, we have the older black



112



1 female, the younger black female, the two

2 children and Pam Fitzgerel, is that correct?

3 A. As I can recall, yes.

4 Q. You don't recall anyone else being in the

5 fitting area?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Among those five, who was the first to leave the

8 fitting area?

9 A. I don't recall.

10 Q. Did Pam Fitzgerel leave the fitting area before

11 the black females or after the black females?

12 A. I believe Pam came out and talked to me while

13 they were still there.

14 Q. How many conversations did you have with Pam

15 Fitzgerel after she had gone into the fitting

16 area?

17 A. Two.

18 Q. One was when she came out?

19 A. Yes, sir.

20 Q. And while they were still in the fitting area?

21 A. Yes, sir.

22 Q. And one was later after they had come out of the

23 fitting area?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. During the first conversation what did she say



113



1 when she came out to you?

2 A. As I read in the report earlier, "Fitzgerel came

3 up to me and said she observed the black female

4 with the coat on put something under her coat."

5 Q. Did you ask her what that something was?

6 A. I again asked her what she saw, and she said

7 that, once again, she observed the black female

8 putting something under her coat.

9 Q. Did Pam Fitzgerel use the word "something" to

10 describe what was put under the coat?

11 A. I don't recall.

12 Q. As best as you can recall, when Pam Fitzgerel

13 came up to you at this time, what words -- who

14 spoke to whom first when she approached you,

15 right, she came to you, is that correct?

16 A. She contacted me.

17 Q. When she contacted you who spoke first?

18 A. She did.

19 Q. What did she say, as best you can recall her

20 words?

21 A. As I stated, she told me that the black female

22 with the coat on had put something under her

23 coat.

24 Q. So your best recollection is she used the word

25 "something" to describe what was put under her



114



1 coat?

2 A. I have got that in my report, but I don't recall

3 her exact words.

4 Q. Did she name it. If she had named an object you

5 would have put it in your report, wouldn't you?

6 If she said she put a hat under her arm, you

7 would with written hat?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. If she had said shoes you would have written

10 shoes?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Is it your best recollection that she did not

13 name the item that she saw placed under the

14 coat?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. So she used the word "something" or another word

17 equivalent to describe an object, is that

18 correct?

19 A. Those are my words of something.

20 Q. I am trying to find out what she said. So I am

21 asking as best as you can recall what she said

22 was placed under the coat?

23 A. As I stated in my report, she said "something,"

24 and that's my words, and I don't know her exact

25 words.



115



1 Q. Is it correct that she told you, that you

2 understood her to be saying that some object had

3 been placed under the coat by the young female?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Is it your understanding that she was not then

6 able to say what that object was?

7 A. Correct.

8 Q. Did you ask her what the object was, did you say

9 could you see what it was, could you tell what

10 it was?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. What did she say?

13 A. Just something.

14 Q. All right. You are not sure she used that word

15 "something?"

16 A. Correct.

17 Q. You asked her if she was positive what she saw,

18 and she again stated she observed the black

19 female of putting something under her coat,

20 correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. That's the end of the first conversation with

23 her?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Then you write, "Both came out of the dressing



116



1 room." By both you mean the two older females?

2 A. Correct.

3 Q. Did the children come out at the same time?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Where was the stroller during the time they were

6 in the dressing room?

7 A. In the fitting room area.

8 Q. But not in the dressing room?

9 A. I don't know.

10 Q. What was on the stroller during this time?

11 A. I have no idea.

12 Q. Do you recall whether anything and on the

13 stroller at this time?

14 A. Baby carriage for something to be placed in.

15 Q. You mean like a child seat?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did it have a bag hanging on the stroller?

18 A. I don't recall.

19 Q. Sometimes strollers come with built in diaper

20 bags, and bottle bags, and things like that, do

21 you recall if it had such an attachment?

22 A. No. I stated I don't recall.

23 Q. Do you recall whether or not the baby stroller

24 had any packages on it?

25 A. I don't recall.



117



1 Q. Or any clothing?

2 A. I don't recall.

3 Q. Any hangers with clothing draped over it?

4 A. I don't recall.

5 Q. You recall that it was in the fitting area, but

6 you don't recall if it was in the dressing room,

7 correct?

8 A. Correct.

9 Q. Both of the females came out, and they walked

10 over into another department. What department

11 was that?

12 A. It's still in the infant department, but not in

13 the Polo section.

14 Q. What department was it?

15 A. Infants, but in another area. I just meant in

16 that same area, but a different location.

17 Q. You said another department. What do you mean

18 by another department?

19 A. As I just stated, that instead of the Polo

20 department area, they went into another section

21 of the infants department there.

22 Q. What section was that?

23 A. Cash register.

24 Q. You write that they purchased some items. Do

25 you know what items they purchased?



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1 A. No.

2 Q. Did you see this transaction?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. How far away were you at this time?

5 A. Oh, probably 50 feet.

6 Q. Why had you moved farther than the 25 feet that

7 you had been maintaining?

8 A. Because the cash register was a little bit

9 farther away, where they went to.

10 Q. When they came out of dressing room they walked

11 toward the cash register, correct?

12 A. No, they bypassed one cash register, and went

13 over into the infant section and purchased the

14 items in the infant section.

15 Q. They bypassed the cashier section in the boys?

16 A. Yes, sir.

17 Q. And went back to where they had been shopping in

18 the infant section, correct?

19 A. They went further back into that area.

20 Q. Who waited on them at the cash register?

21 A. Some associate.

22 Q. Not Pam Fitzgerel?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Do you know how many items they bought, at that

25 time were you able to tell how many items they



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1 were buying?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Do you know how they paid for them?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Do you know whether any of them were on hangers?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Do you know whether any of them had been on

8 hangers?

9 A. No.

10 Q. How long did the first conversation with Pam

11 Fitzgerel last?

12 A. Very briefly.

13 Q. About a minute or less?

14 A. Less than a minute.

15 Q. 30 seconds, about 30 seconds?

16 A. Probably less than 30 seconds.

17 Q. However long it took her to twice tell you that

18 she had seen them put something under a coat?

19 A. Correct.

20 Q. Then from the time that the two females walked

21 out of the dressing room and went to the cash

22 register in the infant section and paid for

23 their items, how long did that take?

24 A. It wasn't very long.

25 Q. Two, three minutes?



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1 A. Probably.

2 Q. While they were at the cash register is that

3 when Pam Fitzgerel went back to the dressing

4 room?

5 A. While there were en route to the cash register

6 area.

7 Q. They were coming out of the dressing room, she

8 goes in it immediately after they come out?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. While there were at the cash register, is that

11 when she comes back to you and has her second

12 conversation?

13 A. It's while they were walking towards the cash

14 register.

15 Q. How long did it take them to get from the

16 dressing room to the cash register?

17 A. Probably a minute or so.

18 Q. Took a minute. All right.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. During this minute or so Pam Fitzgerel went into

21 the dressing room and looked around and came

22 back to you?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. When she approached you for the second

25 conversation, who spoke first?



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1 A. I believe I asked her to check to see if the

2 dressing room was empty or if there was anything

3 in there.

4 Q. You asked her that at the end of the first

5 conversation?

6 A. I don't know if I asked Pam or she took it upon

7 herself to check and advise me.

8 Q. Your report doesn't say either way, does it?

9 A. No.

10 Q. You don't have any recollection?

11 A. No.

12 Q. At the end of the first conversation, you could

13 have asked her, "Pam, would you go check to see

14 if there is anything in the dressing room," that

15 could have been happened, then, correct?

16 A. No, I wouldn't have done that.

17 Q. Or she could have said at the end of the first

18 conversation, "I will go check the dressing

19 room?"

20 A. She could have.

21 Q. But you don't recall it?

22 A. No, I do not.

23 Q. Is it your best recollection that there was no

24 conversation about who was going to check or

25 whether she should check the dressing room, or



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1 you just don't recall if there was a

2 conversation?

3 A. I don't recall who instigated the conversation.

4 Q. But you do recall there was a conversation about

5 checking the dressing room?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Do you recall whether or not that was at the end

8 of the first conversation, when she came back

9 saying she had seen something go under the coat?

10 A. It would have been after they departed the

11 fitting room area.

12 Q. She was still standing next to you when they

13 departed the fitting room area?

14 A. I don't recall where she was.

15 Q. But she was close enough to you to have some

16 conversation about checking the dressing room?

17 A. After they left.

18 Q. So if she wasn't near you, then she came back to

19 you?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Had a brief conversation about checking the

22 dressing room?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Then she went to check the dressing room?

25 A. Yes.



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1 Q. Then she came back and had a third conversation

2 with you, isn't that right?

3 A. Yes.

4 (Discussion off the record.)

5 (A recess was taken.)

6 Q. (By Mr. Benson) I want to go back to the first

7 conversation with Pam Fitzgerel when you wrote

8 in your report, "I then stopped Pam Fitzgerel to

9 watch the females." Do you recall what

10 language, what words you used to watch the

11 females?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. What did you say?

14 A. I told her that the young female had a dark item

15 under her left arm that the child was on top of.

16 Q. And asked her to watch that?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Then the second conversation with Pam Fitzgerel

19 was when she said or you said, somebody said --

20 had the conversation about going to check the

21 dressing room?

22 A. No.

23 Q. No. Oh, excuse me. The second conversation was

24 when she came back and said about something

25 being put under the coat?



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1 A. Yes, sir.

2 Q. The third conversation was when there was a

3 brief conversation about someone checking the

4 dressing room?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Then she came back after having checked the

7 dressing room and approached you, correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. It was the fourth conversation then. What did

10 she say when she came up to you? You wrote in

11 your report, "Fitzgerel checked the dressing

12 room and it was empty."

13 A. Correct.

14 Q. What words did she say?

15 A. I don't know her exact words, but I know that

16 she said it was empty.

17 Q. Now, after the women, the two black females,

18 went to the cashier, you observed them from

19 about 50 feet away when they made their

20 purchases, is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. After they made their purchases, where did they

23 go?

24 A. Back into the cosmetic department.

25 Q. And was that further away from you, were they



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1 walking away from you even further?

2 A. They were coming toward me.

3 Q. Coming toward you?

4 A. Yes, sir.

5 Q. Were you still in the boys department?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. In your report you write, "I followed them to

8 men's cosmetic," and there a word that is

9 crossed out and something written in. What is

10 the word that is written in?

11 A. I don't know.

12 Q. Or is that your initials?

13 A. Those are my initials, showing that I crossed

14 something out.

15 Q. So as you were writing the report, you started

16 to write something, changed your mind, crossed

17 it out and initialled it?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. "I followed them to men's cosmetic and stopped

20 them before they left the store," is that

21 correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Before you stopped them, did you go to the

24 cashier and find out what they had purchased?

25 A. No.



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1 Q. Were you able to see this rolled up blue item

2 while they were at the cashier area?

3 A. I never saw it again.

4 Q. Were you able to tell what items they were

5 purchasing at the cashier from where you were?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Do you know whether Pam Fitzgerel was able to

8 observe what they were purchasing?

9 A. I can't speak for her.

10 Q. Do you know whether she ever asked the cashier

11 what had been purchased?

12 A. I do not know.

13 Q. Did you ask the cashier what had been purchased?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Do you know how many items the two woman had

16 purchased at this cashier stand?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Do you know whether it was more than one?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. How do you know it was more than one?

21 A. From a receipt that they had.

22 Q. You later found out that it was more than one?

23 A. Yes, sir.

24 Q. But at the time that they were making the

25 purchase you couldn't tell whether there were



127



1 purchasing one or five items?

2 A. Correct.

3 Q. You couldn't tell whether the items were large

4 or small?

5 A. No, I could not.

6 Q. Light or dark?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Soft and fussy or slick and artificial?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Did you later learn what the items were that

11 they purchased from the receipt?

12 A. I couldn't tell you.

13 MR. BENSON: This is a good stopping

14 point here, if you want to stop. We are about

15 to get into the stop.

16 MS. KOCH: Let's take a quick one.

17 MR. BENSON: Off the record.

18 (Discussion off the record.)

19 (The noon recess was taken.)

20 Q. (By Mr. Benson) Mr. Wilson, I want to go back

21 to where you described that you saw the younger

22 female place this rolled up item under the

23 infant. How was she carrying the infant and the

24 item, could you describe what you saw?

25 A. The dark colored item was resting on her left



128



1 forearm, and she had the child cradled in her

2 left arm, and so the child was sitting on top of

3 the item.

4 Q. Of the item?

5 A. Yes, sir.

6 Q. What was the size of this item? Was it rolled

7 up when you saw it at that time, still appeared

8 to be rolled up?

9 A. Yes, it was still -- not -- yes.

10 Q. About what were its dimensions, approximately?

11 A. I couldn't say. It didn't take up her whole

12 arm.

13 Q. Was it sort of crosswise on her arm?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. As opposed to being parallel to her arm?

16 A. It was parallel to her arm.

17 Q. Parallel to the arm?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And riding on the -- as you extend your left

20 hand palm up in front of you, then the bottom of

21 your forearm is facing up?

22 A. Yes, sir.

23 Q. So she had it on that bottom of her forearm

24 which was facing up?

25 A. Yes, sir.



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1 Q. And the child was on top of that?

2 A. Yes, sir.

3 Q. Did this item run from her wrist to her elbow,

4 approximately?

5 A. It was in that area.

6 Q. Give or take a few inches?

7 A. Yes, sir.

8 Q. At this time were you able to see what it was?

9 A. No, sir.

10 Q. You don't know. You couldn't tell anything more

11 about it then than when you had first seen it?

12 A. That's correct.

13 Q. All you know it was a dark colored item?

14 A. Yes, sir.

15 Q. You don't know whether it was had more than one

16 color, could it have been two or three dark

17 colors, or do you know?

18 A. No, sir, I don't recall.

19 Q. You just don't recall?

20 A. No. It was just dark colored.

21 Q. When she came out, the child was on top of it,

22 so you could only see, I take it, a little slice

23 of it?

24 A. Yes, sir.

25 Q. Have you ever seen these two females since April



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1 5th, 1996, to your knowledge?

2 A. No, sir.

3 Q. Would you recognize them if you saw them again?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Can you describe any features of them, did they

6 have thin faces or round faces?

7 A. I cannot recall.

8 Q. For either of them?

9 A. No, sir.

10 Q. As to their weight, were they heavy, normal or

11 light weight?

12 A. The young female that I was watching looked like

13 she was a thin female.

14 Q. Was she tall, short or of medium height?

15 A. She wasn't small but she wasn't overly tall.

16 Q. In between?

17 A. Yes, sir.

18 Q. And the older of the females, was she tall,

19 medium or short?

20 A. I cannot recall her size.

21 Q. Was there any significance difference in their

22 sizes, in their heights?

23 A. I am thinking the older female might have been

24 shorter.

25 Q. By very much?



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1 A. No, sir, I cannot recall that.

2 Q. In your report you say you followed them to

3 men's cosmetic. Did they stop at men's

4 cosmetic?

5 A. They were coming through cosmetics just looking

6 at the time.

7 Q. And pausing and moving on and pausing?

8 A. As I recall, yes, sir.

9 Q. Had they stopped at a counter by the time you

10 approached them?

11 A. We were next to a counter when I approached

12 them.

13 Q. Were they being waited on or assisted by an

14 associate when you approached them?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Was there an associate nearby when you

17 approached them?

18 A. There were associates in the area.

19 Q. Did they have any cosmetic items in their hands

20 that they were looking at when you approached

21 them?

22 A. Not that I recall.

23 Q. Were they walking or had the stopped when you

24 approached them?

25 A. They were walking.



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1 Q. Is it more or less a straight line from the

2 infants cashier to the men's cosmetic, or do

3 they have to wander through?

4 A. They have to wander through.

5 Q. Through other sections of the department store?

6 A. From the infants over into the cosmetics.

7 Q. About how far from the cashier where they bought

8 their items in the infant section to the men's

9 cosmetic is that distance? If you walked it off

10 and measured their path, would it be 20 yards,

11 30 yards?

12 A. It could be 20 yards.

13 Q. Then were they walking in one of the aisles?

14 A. Yes, sir.

15 Q. Where does that aisle lead that there were on?

16 A. To the mall entrance.

17 Q. How far is the men's cosmetic -- let me start

18 that over.

19 From the point where you stopped them

20 to the mall entrance what is the distance?

21 A. Four feet.

22 Q. When you approached them they were pushing the

23 baby stroller?

24 A. Yes, sir.

25 Q. Was anything in the stroller?



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1 A. I don't recall.

2 Q. Was the infant still being carried by the

3 younger female?

4 A. I don't believe so.

5 Q. Where was the smaller of the two children when

6 you approached them?

7 A. I don't recall.

8 Q. Were they carrying any packages that you

9 noticed?

10 A. Yes, sir.

11 Q. Who was carrying the packages, or how many

12 packages were being carried?

13 A. I believe one package.

14 Q. Who had the package?

15 A. I don't recall.

16 Q. When you approached them, did you speak first?

17 A. Yes, I did.

18 Q. What did you say?

19 A. I identified myself as Dillard's security.

20 Q. What words did you use when you identified

21 yourself?

22 A. I am Dillard's security. "Hello, I am Dillard's

23 security."

24 Q. The first word you said was, "Hello"?

25 A. Yes.



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1 Q. And you said, "I am Dillard's security"?

2 A. Yes, sir.

3 Q. Did you show any identification?

4 A. I don't believe so.

5 Q. You said, "I am Dillard's security." Did they

6 respond, did anyone respond?

7 A. I don't recall.

8 Q. What was said next?

9 A. I advised both of them that the young female had

10 been observed placing something under her coat

11 by an associate.

12 Q. What language, to the best of your recollection,

13 did you use when you advised them that?

14 A. What I just stated.

15 Q. You didn't say use the word "advised," did

16 you?

17 A. I was told.

18 Q. So try it as best as you can, use the words of

19 what you said, you said, "I was told," then what

20 did you say?

21 A. Told them that the young black female had been

22 observed placing something in her coat.

23 Q. Did you use the phrase, "Young black female,"

24 when you were speaking to them?

25 A. Yes, sir.



135



1 Q. You stopped them and said, "Hello, I am

2 Dillard's security. The young black female has

3 been observed placing something in her coat," is

4 that what you said?

5 A. Yes, sir.

6 Q. Did you say that to the older black female?

7 A. I said it to both of them.

8 Q. Let me see if I understand it. "Hello, I am

9 Dillard's security." That's the first thing you

10 said?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Did you pause for a second to see if there was

13 any response?

14 A. I have no recollection of that, sir.

15 Q. "Hello, I am Dillard's security. The young

16 black female has been observed placing something

17 in her coat." That's what you said to the best

18 of your recollection?

19 A. I cannot tell you exactly what I stated.

20 Q. But you did use the phrase, "young black

21 female?"

22 A. The young female.

23 Q. You didn't use the adjective black?

24 A. No, sir.

25 Q. If you earlier stated that in answer of one of



136



1 my questions, then that was a mistake?

2 A. Yes, it was.

3 Q. Did you use the word "young?"

4 A. Yes, I did.

5 Q. After you said -- did you say who had observed

6 her placing something in the coat, did you say

7 by a sales associate?

8 A. I can't recall.

9 Q. Was the young female still wearing the black

10 coat?

11 A. Yes, sir.

12 Q. Then your report says, "The black female pushing

13 the baby stroller," that is referring to the

14 older of the two women, is that right?

15 A. It could be yes, sir. Yes, sir.

16 Q. It was?

17 A. Yes, sir.

18 Q. "She said they had purchased something, and I

19 asked to look into the bag." Is that what you

20 wrote?

21 A. Yes, sir.

22 Q. Do you recall what words the older female said

23 when she said they purchased some items, do you

24 recall what language she used?

25 A. No.



137



1 Q. Did she say what they had purchased?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Did she say how many items they had purchased?

4 A. No.

5 Q. She just said words to the effect, "We purchased

6 some items?"

7 A. Yes, sir.

8 Q. Did she say where, in what department?

9 A. No.

10 Q. What words did you use when you asked to look in

11 the bag?

12 A. "I would like to look at your receipt for the

13 items that are in the bag."

14 Q. That's what you said?

15 A. Yes, sir.

16 Q. Where was the receipt?

17 A. Inside the bag.

18 Q. Who had the bag at that time?

19 A. I can't recall who had it.

20 Q. One of the two?

21 A. Yes, sir.

22 Q. One of the two adults, is that correct?

23 A. Yes, sir.

24 Q. It wasn't in the stroller?

25 A. Not that I recall.



138



1 Q. Whoever had it handed it to you?

2 A. Yes, sir.

3 Q. And did you take the items out?

4 A. I could have.

5 Q. You put them on the cosmetics counter?

6 A. I could have.

7 Q. Do you recall whether you did or not?

8 A. No.

9 Q. In your report you said, "Inside were three

10 items and a receipt for the items."

11 A. Yes, sir.

12 Q. Do you recall what those three items were?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Do you recall whether they were infants

15 clothing?

16 A. I believe they were infants clothing.

17 Q. Do you recall what they were made out of?

18 A. No, sir.

19 Q. Do you recall whether they were large or small?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Do you recall what color they were?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Do you recall whether they were a combination,

24 whether they were like a matching set of

25 something?



139



1 A. I do not recall.

2 Q. Do you recall whether they were soft or stiff?

3 A. No, sir.

4 Q. Where were the children at the time?

5 A. With the females.

6 Q. Standing there in the vicinity with them?

7 A. Yes, sir.

8 Q. Do you recall how the children were dressed?

9 A. No, sir.

10 Q. Do you recall whether the children had on any

11 outer garments?

12 A. No, sir.

13 Q. Coats or jackets?

14 A. I do not recall.

15 Q. Were there any Dillard's hangers in the bag?

16 A. No, sir.

17 Q. This item you had seen earlier that was on the

18 younger female's foreman that ran, give or take

19 a few inches, from nearly her wrist to her

20 elbow, do you recall the diameter of it when it

21 was rolled up, are we talking about three inches

22 in diameter?

23 A. Approximately.

24 Q. I am not real good at distances here, but would

25 you say it was like eight, nine or ten inches



140



1 long and three inches in diameter,

2 approximately?

3 A. I don't know how long it was.

4 Q. Was anything said while you were taking the

5 items out of the bag, was anybody talking?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Who was talking?

8 A. The older female.

9 Q. What was she saying? I am talking about during

10 the time you were taking the items out of the

11 bag?

12 A. Yes, sir.

13 Q. What was being said, if anything?

14 A. She gave me -- somebody gave me permission to

15 look inside the bag.

16 Q. You said, "I would like to look inside the bag,"

17 and they handed the bag to you?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. From the time they handed the bag to you until

20 you finished taking the items out and comparing

21 them to the receipt was anything said, or did

22 you look at the items and compare them to the

23 receipt in silence?

24 A. Yes, sir, I did.

25 Q. You were not saying anything, is that correct?



141



1 A. No. I was busy looking at the items.

2 Q. And they weren't saying anything either. They

3 were watching you look at the items?

4 A. Yes, they started watching me take them out and

5 look at them.

6 Q. While you were checking the items against the

7 receipt no one was saying anything, is that

8 correct?

9 A. I can't recall.

10 Q. You compared the three items to the receipt, is

11 that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And the three items matched the receipt?

14 A. I looked on the sales ticket and there were

15 three items, and that's what she had in her bag

16 was three items.

17 Q. That satisfied you that the three items in the

18 bag were not stolen merchandise of Dillard's?

19 A. Yes, sir.

20 Q. What did you do then?

21 A. I had a conversation with the older female.

22 Q. Who started that conversation?

23 A. She did.

24 Q. Did you tell her what you had seen by comparing

25 the items to the sales ticket?



142



1 A. Yes.

2 Q. What did you tell her?

3 A. I said, "That's fine."

4 Q. That's after you finished looking at them you

5 turned to her and said, "That's fine?"

6 A. No. She struck up a conversation with me before

7 I had the items back into the bag.

8 Q. Did you put the items back into the bag

9 yourself, or leave them for them to do that?

10 A. I should have put them back into the bag myself.

11 Q. But you don't recall?

12 A. No, sir.

13 Q. She started the conversation. What did she say,

14 the older lady?

15 A. She was talking about that I was accusing them

16 of shoplifting, and that I had no right to stop

17 them outside the Dillard's store. And at that

18 point, I advised her, and showed her where the

19 door closes in Dillard's and that we were

20 actually still inside Dillard's.

21 Q. Did you respond to what she had said about her

22 belief that you had accused her of shoplifting?

23 A. I explained to her that it was the young female.

24 Q. That what was the young female?

25 A. That was observed. That's why I talked to them.



143



1 Q. And the young female was standing there?

2 A. Not saying a word.

3 Q. She didn't say anything?

4 A. No.

5 Q. In your mind, do you consider that to be

6 suspicious that she was not saying anything?

7 A. I don't know what was going through her mind.

8 Q. Did you consider that to be suspicious?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Is it your belief that if she had not stolen

11 anything she would have spoken up and defended

12 herself, is that your belief?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. "The older female," then you write, "was

15 starting to get louder and louder, and I asked

16 to calm down."

17 A. Yes, sir.

18 Q. What was she saying that she was saying in a

19 louder and louder voice?

20 A. Of being accused of shoplifting, and that they

21 were going to return all the items that she had

22 purchased, and that she had spent over $10,000

23 in the last year at Dillard's.

24 Q. This was what she was saying louder and louder

25 before you asked her to calm down?



144



1 A. This was during while she was speaking, I tried

2 to calm her down.

3 Q. You asked her to calm down, did you say, "Ma'am,

4 calm down?"

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. "Ma'am, please calm down."

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. You said that after she had gotten louder and

9 louder?

10 A. Yes, sir.

11 Q. "She kept interrupting me," you wrote, "and

12 talking loud." She continued talking loud?

13 A. Yes, sir.

14 Q. "I told her if she wouldn't calm down I would

15 have to call the Overland Park Police

16 Department."

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Did you use essentially those words, "Ma'am, if

19 you don't calm down I will have to call Overland

20 Park?"

21 A. Yes, sir.

22 Q. Her response was, "Go ahead?"

23 A. Yes, sir.

24 Q. Then you said, "Would you like to go to the

25 office to talk?"



145



1 A. Yes, sir.

2 Q. Using approximately those words?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And she turned to the younger female and said,

5 "We are going to return all the items, because

6 we don't need this," is that what she said?

7 A. Yes, sir.

8 Q. She asked about using the phone, and you pointed

9 her to the pay phone outside the door?

10 A. Yes, sir.

11 Q. Was there a manager on duty at this time?

12 A. I have no idea who was on duty.

13 Q. Is there usually a manager on duty when the

14 store is open?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Where is the manager's office?

17 A. Well, it all depends on who is working.

18 Q. Is there an office suite where the managers are?

19 A. Well, it's for -- Marvie Dirks has an office and

20 then some others, but when they have a manager

21 on duty, it could be the manager who has an

22 office in a different part of the store.

23 Q. Are any of the managers located in or near

24 customer service?

25 A. No, sir.



146



1 Q. Customer service is on what floor?

2 A. Third floor.

3 Q. This cosmetic counter where you stopped the two

4 females is on the second floor?

5 A. Yes, sir.

6 Q. You told the older female that customer service

7 was on the third floor, correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And you watched them go, it says to the men's

10 department. Is the men's department in the

11 direction of customer service?

12 A. That's to the escalator or to the elevator to go

13 up to the third floor.

14 Q. To customer service?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. You only watched them go as far as men's

17 department on the way to customer service?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. You later learned they did go to customer

20 service?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Then you left the area?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Where did you go?

25 A. I went to write a report.



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1 Q. Where did you write the report?

2 A. Over in the executive offices.

3 Q. Who was present in the executive offices when

4 you got there, anyone?

5 A. I don't think there was anybody because I used

6 an empty office.

7 Q. Then in your report you write, "The female

8 wearing the dark coat," this is the younger

9 female you are referring to, is that correct?

10 A. Yes, sir.

11 Q. "The female wearing the dark coat never said a

12 word." By never said a word, what time period

13 are you referring to?

14 A. The whole time that I was in contact.

15 Q. At the cosmetic counter area?

16 A. Yes, sir.

17 Q. From the time you first approached them until

18 the time you went to write your report she never

19 said a word?

20 A. Correct.

21 Q. Didn't say a word to you?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Is that correct?

24 A. Correct.

25 Q. And did she say anything to the other female?



148



1 A. I cannot recall.

2 Q. You don't recall her ever saying a word to the

3 other female either, correct?

4 A. I cannot recall.

5 Q. You cannot recall whether she said a word or you

6 cannot recall what she said?

7 A. I cannot recall if she spoke to the lady that

8 was with her.

9 Q. Do you recall whether she spoke to the children?

10 A. No, I cannot.

11 Q. Did she at any time say that she had not stolen

12 anything?

13 A. No, sir.

14 Q. Was she still carrying the purse that you

15 observed earlier?

16 A. Yes, sir.

17 Q. What can you tell us about the purse. What did

18 it look like?

19 A. As I stated earlier, I could not describe the

20 purse to you in size, color, shape.

21 Q. You can't tell us whether it was large or small,

22 correct?

23 A. As I stated earlier.

24 Q. Can you tell us whether is was on her left

25 shoulder or right shoulder?



149



1 A. No, I cannot.

2 Q. At any time you were there did you hear the

3 younger female at any time protest that she had

4 not taken anything from Dillard's?

5 A. No, sir.

6 Q. Who else was in the vicinity at the time?

7 A. I have no idea.

8 Q. Were there some sales associates nearby?

9 A. Could be.

10 Q. Do you know if any sales associates stopped to

11 observe what was going on?

12 A. I have no idea.

13 Q. Have you read any of the reports of the sales

14 associates?

15 A. One.

16 Q. Who was that?

17 A. Pam Fitzgerel, as I stated earlier.

18 Q. Was she present when you stopped the older and

19 the younger female?

20 A. I don't believe so.

21 Q. What color of eyes do you have?

22 A. Hazel.

23 Q. How tall are you?

24 A. 5-10.

25 Q. How much do you weigh?



150



1 A. Well, this morning on the scale I was 178.

2 Q. Do you recall approximately how much you weighed

3 back in April of '96?

4 A. I pretty well stay the same.

5 Q. Been the same since you graduated from high

6 school, probably?

7 A. No.

8 Q. No? Have you been from 170 to 180 pretty much

9 for the last five or six years?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Do you workout?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. What do you do to workout?

14 A. Run and lift weights.

15 Q. You stated that when you approached the two

16 women as they were passing through men's

17 cosmetic, they were walking, correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Do you recall which one was pushing the

20 stroller?

21 A. I think you asked me a question earlier, and I

22 think I identified the older female.

23 Q. When you stopped them, did you step in front of

24 them, because they were walking?

25 A. Yes, sir.



151



1 Q. That's when you said, "Hello, I am Dillard's

2 security?"

3 A. Yes, sir.

4 Q. Were the two female walking together, were they

5 sort of more or less shoulder to shoulder?

6 A. They were together.

7 Q. With the stroller out in front of one of them?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And did they have the children by the hands?

10 A. As I said earlier, I don't recall what the kids

11 were doing.

12 Q. Were they in the front or behind or at the side

13 of the adults?

14 A. They wouldn't have been in front, because I was

15 talking to both females.

16 Q. When you stepped in front of them, you stepped

17 directly in front of two females?

18 A. Yes, sir.

19 Q. So there wasn't enough room for the children to

20 be in between you and the females?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. You were 12 or 18 inches away from the females?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Have you see Dillard's video entitled,

25 "Shrinkage, we all pay"?



152



1 A. No.

2 Q. Have you ever been in Dillard's loss prevention

3 program?

4 A. No, sir.

5 Q. I am showing you what's been marked Deposition

6 Exhibit 4, which is several pages, entitled,

7 "Shrinkage, we all pay." Have you ever seen

8 that document before? It's an outline of a

9 presentation in their loss prevention program, I

10 believe?

11 A. No.

12 Q. You have never seen it before?

13 A. No.

14 Q. At the beginning of the deposition you said that

15 it was your belief today that some item of

16 Dillard's merchandise was stolen on this

17 occasion we have been discussing, is that

18 correct?

19 A. Yes, sir.

20 Q. Is it your belief that that item was in the

21 possession of one of these two women at the time

22 you stopped them?

23 A. Yes, sir.

24 Q. Where do you believe that item was at the time?

25 A. It was either in the bag or on the young female.



153



1 Q. In what bag?

2 A. The bag that I checked for the three items that

3 they had a receipt for.

4 Q. I thought you checked and were satisfied that

5 they had not stolen anything, that nothing in

6 the bag had been stolen?

7 A. That's correct.

8 Q. So now you are saying it could have been in the

9 bag, the stolen item could have been in the bag?

10 A. No, sir.

11 Q. I must have misunderstood. Let me ask the

12 question again. Where do you now believe the

13 stolen item was located at the time you stopped

14 the two women at men's cosmetic?

15 A. When I stopped them, as I stated, it could be

16 either in the bag -- that's why I wanted to

17 check the bag.

18 Q. That's what you were thinking at that time?

19 A. Yes, sir.

20 Q. My question is today. At the beginning of this

21 deposition you stated that you believe that they

22 had, in fact, stolen an item?

23 A. Yes, sir.

24 Q. That's still your belief?

25 A. Yes.



154



1 Q. Now, at the end of the deposition as it was at

2 the beginning?

3 A. Yes, sir.

4 Q. I am not promising this is the end, but toward

5 the end.

6 MS. KOCH: I know we have been going

7 on for a while, but I do object to the extent

8 you are mischaracterizing the previous testimony

9 because I don't believe Mr. Wilson said he

10 thought the two women had taken an item.

11 Q. (By Mr. Benson) Is it your belief that one of

12 the two women was in the process of stealing an

13 item when you stopped them at Dillard's on April

14 5, 1996?

15 A. Yes, sir.

16 Q. Today, as you are thinking back over this, where

17 do you believe the item was located?

18 A. With the young female.

19 Q. Where do you think the young female had it?

20 A. Inside her coat.

21 Q. You didn't check inside her coat when you

22 stopped them?

23 A. No, sir.

24 Q. Why not?

25 A. I was satisfied. I would rather let one item go



155



1 out the door, someone that deprived Dillard's of

2 their property, and that's the decision I made.

3 Q. So you were thinking at that time it's probably

4 under the coat but I better not check, I think I

5 will not check?

6 A. I did not check her coat.

7 Q. At the time, did you think about checking the

8 coat?

9 A. No.

10 Q. It didn't occur to you to check the coat?

11 A. I stopped, after I checked the bag and did not

12 want to pursue it.

13 Q. After you checked the bag, did you consider

14 checking the young female's coat?

15 A. No, sir.

16 Q. The item that you believed was being stolen, was

17 it too large to be in her purse, or do you know?

18 A. I don't know.

19 Q. You didn't think about checking her purse at

20 that time either, did you?

21 A. No, sir.

22 Q. In part, you believed that the young female was

23 stealing the item because she remained silent

24 when you were discussing this?

25 A. Yes, sir.



156



1 Q. And that's an important part your belief now

2 that she stole the item, it's an important part

3 of the evidence that leads you to conclude that

4 she was stealing the item at the time, is that

5 right?

6 A. No. The combination of what Pam Fitzgerel had

7 advised me, and then also of her silence.

8 Q. Have you testified in any shoplifting or theft

9 cases on behalf of Dillard's?

10 A. Yes, sir.

11 Q. Approximately how many?

12 A. Very few.

13 Q. Five?

14 A. Could be five or less, sir.

15 Q. Is it customary to allow suspects believed to

16 have shoplifted merchandise of Dillard's to

17 depart the store before you stop them?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And that's done so you can establish the legal

20 element of intent to deprive the store of its

21 lawful ownership of the property?

22 A. No. We have stopped them inside the store also

23 with that same intent.

24 Q. If you stop them inside the store, they say,

25 "Oh, I was just on my way to the cashier," or "I



157



1 forgot, I will go right to the cashier, but I

2 hadn't left the store?"

3 A. No.

4 Q. That doesn't add some reasonable doubt as to

5 whether or not they actually had the intent to

6 deprive the owner of lawful possession?

7 A. No. What you described has not happened.

8 Q. On this day, before you first saw the females in

9 the infant department when you were just

10 walking, had anyone told you where to be that

11 day or were you just on your own?

12 A. We just go ahead and roam the store.

13 Q. So on this particular day you were roaming the

14 store?

15 A. I am all over.

16 Q. All over the store?

17 A. Yes, sir.

18 Q. You hadn't been directed by store management to

19 go to any particular area that day?

20 A. No, sir.

21 Q. On the intercom are there various codes that are

22 used to identify incidents that may be underway

23 in the store?

24 A. We have a code that they will broadcast if a

25 theft has occurred, or if there is a problem in



158



1 an area.

2 Q. Is there a code that describes the suspect or

3 the person that may be involved in it?

4 A. No. When they broadcast -- what we are talking

5 about is a Code 99, and that alerts us, and

6 that's part of our job description, and when we

7 hear a Code 99, we will go directly to that

8 area, because we don't know what is going on.

9 Q. If there is a suspect in the store, somebody who

10 is suspected of having stolen something, or is

11 stealing something, or in the past having stolen

12 something, is there a code that can be used to

13 identify whether it is a man or a woman?

14 A. Yes, sir.

15 Q. What is that code?

16 A. Well, there's a couple of codes that we use as

17 police officers. Code 1 would be a white male,

18 Code 2 would be a white female, Code 3 would be

19 a black male, and Code 4 would be a black

20 female.

21 Q. Are there any other identification codes such as

22 that?

23 A. In addition?

24 Q. In addition to the 1 through 4, do you have a

25 Code 5?



159



1 A. Yes, Hispanic.

2 Q. Hispanic male, and 6 would be Hispanic female?

3 A. We would just go ahead and say Code 5 female.

4 Q. 5 means Hispanic, male or female?

5 A. Yes, sir.

6 Q. What does Code 6 mean?

7 A. I have no idea.

8 Q. Those are the five codes that you know of that

9 are used as characteristic identifiers?

10 A. Yes, sir.

11 Q. In addition to writing up the report, which is

12 Wilson Deposition Exhibit 1, did you create any

13 other documents concerning this incident

14 involving these two females?

15 A. No, sir.

16 Q. Did you make an entry in the security incident

17 log book?

18 A. I don't believe so.

19 Q. Why not?

20 A. It's not required.

21 Q. When is it required to make an entry into the

22 security incident log book?

23 A. It's been very lax. If I would get a shoplifter

24 and I would be doing the paperwork, and the

25 store would close, and if I have to go sign a



160



1 complaint, I might not go back and do the log on

2 it.

3 Q. What kinds of incidents would normally be put

4 into the incident log book?

5 A. You can put anything in there.

6 Q. Anything that happens?

7 A. Anything.

8 Q. Anything that might result in some claim against

9 the store at a later date, like somebody falls

10 down, an injury?

11 A. That could be one. Another one would be

12 assisting a lost person, lost child, stolen

13 credit cards, things of that nature.

14 Q. Anything you may want a record on in case

15 something later develops concerning it?

16 A. I don't know on Dillard's.

17 Q. What instructions were you giving as to what

18 kinds of incidents you should put in the

19 incident log?

20 A. There wasn't.

21 Q. What do you consider to be an incident where

22 they are being placed in the security incident

23 log book?

24 A. I usually don't put stuff in it.

25 Q. If you make an arrest, do you also usually not



161



1 record that arrest in the security incident log

2 book?

3 A. Correct.

4 Q. This rolled up item of dark color that you

5 believe the young female may have stolen, did

6 you believe that that was Dillard's merchandise?

7 A. Yes, sir.

8 Q. What about it caused you to believe it was

9 Dillard's merchandise?

10 A. Because when I first observed the young female

11 she never had anything rolled up in her hand.

12 While she was there looking in the area of the

13 Polo section, suddenly she had a rolled up item

14 in her hand, and she never had it prior.

15 Q. Did you have her in continuous observation

16 during that 15 minutes you were observing her?

17 A. Yes, I did.

18 Q. Was it at sometime during that 15 minutes that

19 you first observed the rolled up item?

20 A. Yes, sir.

21 Q. Do you recall how far into that 15-minute

22 observational period you first noticed the

23 rolled up item?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Was it midway or further into the observation



162



1 period?

2 A. I cannot recall.

3 Q. There was never a moment when you didn't have

4 her in view, is that correct?

5 A. That's correct.

6 Q. Not even three seconds?

7 A. Except when she went into the fitting room area.

8 Q. But that was after the other female had come

9 back?

10 A. Yes, sir.

11 Q. I am talking now about the 15 minutes when she

12 was there alone and you were observing her, is

13 that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. She was never out of your sight for as little as

16 three seconds?

17 A. She could have been for three seconds.

18 Q. Ten seconds? How many times was she out of your

19 direct observation during that 15 minutes?

20 A. Oh, I can't recall, but I might have looked down

21 at a clothing rack, to see where I am going

22 because I am moving, but still trying to keep a

23 visual on her.

24 Q. Never for more than just a few seconds was she

25 out of your view?



163



1 A. Correct.

2 Q. You were trying to keep her under close

3 observation?

4 A. Yes, sir.

5 Q. During this 15-minute period, would you say that

6 you had her under tight surveillance?

7 A. Yes, sir.

8 Q. Would you say that during this 15-minute period

9 you had her under constant observation?

10 A. Yes, sir.

11 Q. Would you say that you were successful in

12 keeping her under constant observation?

13 A. You need to define successful.

14 Q. Did you, in fact, keep her under constant

15 observation?

16 A. Yes, I did.

17 (Discussion off the record.)

18 Q. (By Mr. Benson) When you first approached the

19 two females when you stepped in front of them is

20 when I believe you said you were speaking to the

21 older female, and it's when you accused the

22 younger female of having been observed placing

23 something in her coat?

24 A. No. I spoke to both of them.

25 Q. You spoke to both of them simultaneously?



164



1 A. Yes, sir.

2 Q. So the younger female could have heard you

3 accusing her of placing something in her coat,

4 or she should have been able to hear it?

5 A. She did hear me, yes, sir.

6 Q. When you accused her of placing something in

7 her, coat it's your testimony that she did not

8 respond, is that correct?

9 A. Correct. No words came from her.

10 Q. She didn't protest to you that you had made a

11 mistake or she hadn't done it?

12 A. No, sir.

13 Q. After you had searched the bag and decided to

14 depart the area, you didn't apologize to them

15 for having stopped them, did you?

16 A. No, sir. I was never given a chance.

17 Q. It was because the older woman was doing all the

18 talking?

19 A. Yes, sir.

20 Q. And you didn't hold up your hand and say,

21 "Ma'am, ma'am, stop. I am story. I made a

22 mistake?"

23 A. I tried to speak but she would not allow me

24 to --

25 Q. Get a word in edgewise?



165



1 A. Yes, sir.

2 Q. Is that correct?

3 A. Yes, sir.

4 Q. When Pam Fitzgerel reported that nothing was in

5 the dressing room, you recall this, that she

6 reported this to you?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. The fact that nothing was in the dressing room,

9 was that suspicious? You don't understand the

10 question? I see this puzzled look on your face.

11 A. It's not suspicious that there is nothing in

12 there.

13 Q. Did it either confirm or counter your prior

14 suspicion that shoplifting might be underway?

15 A. It confirmed, by not finding that dark rolled up

16 item in that fitting room.

17 Q. Has it been your practice that when items are

18 shoplifted that often the shoplifter removes the

19 price tag or the identifying tag before

20 shoplifting it?

21 A. Yes, sir.

22 Q. That is common, is it not?

23 A. It's both ways.

24 Q. They do it both ways?

25 A. Yes.



166



1 Q. If Pam Fitzgerel had found the price tag or the

2 identifying tag in the dressing room, that would

3 have been very suspicious, would it not?

4 A. I don't know just with the tag, because there is

5 a lot of stuff from other people that go in

6 there and they might accidentally rip something

7 off, not a sales tag, but a clothing tag.

8 Q. So either the absence or presence of the price

9 tag for an item in a dressing room is not

10 suspicious, just in and of itself?

11 A. Yes, unless I know that, you know, it was

12 totally clean of no tags laying on the floor.

13 Q. Has it been your observation that when customers

14 are shopping for items that are on a hanger that

15 they customarily -- either the sales associates

16 at the cashier desk removes the hanger, or the

17 shopper himself or herself removes the hanger?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. That's customary?

20 A. Yes, sir.

21 Q. So when these two females came out of the

22 dressing room and the younger female put a

23 hanger down as they went up to the cashier's

24 register, that is customary practice?

25 A. Yes, sir.



167



1 Q. That in and of itself is not suspicious?

2 A. It can be.

3 Q. In and of itself, just that alone, is not

4 suspicious?

5 A. No, sir.

6 Q. You say it can be suspicious. Why would that

7 make you suspicious, somebody coming out of a

8 dressing room and putting down a hanger without

9 clothing on it?

10 A. If I have watched them take in a lot of items

11 and I know exactly how many items they had, and

12 I can compare what they purchased, and how many

13 hangers were found in a fitting room or hanging

14 on a rack.

15 Q. Were you made suspicious by the fact that the

16 young female when she came out put down an empty

17 hanger?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Why did you put it in your report?

20 A. Because that's what I observed.

21 Q. When you identify yourself to a suspect as

22 Dillard's security, what do you do if the

23 suspect doesn't stop to talk to you?

24 A. Keep following them and try to get ahold of mall

25 security.



168



1 Q. Aren't you mall -- no, mall security as opposed

2 to Dillard's security?

3 A. Correct.

4 Q. That's what you would do if they were outside of

5 Dillard's?

6 A. Yes, sir.

7 Q. What would you do if the person was inside of

8 Dillard's but refused to stop and talk to you?

9 A. I can't physically detain them just to talk to

10 them.

11 Q. If you suspect they have stolen something?

12 A. If I suspect, then I can detain them for

13 Overland Park Police Department.

14 Q. If the person doesn't stop --

15 A. Yes, sir.

16 Q. -- you could take ahold of their arm or

17 physically detain them in some way?

18 A. Yes, sir.

19 Q. That's what you would do if you believed that

20 the suspect had stolen something?

21 A. Yes, sir.

22 Q. If the person resisted, you would use such force

23 as was necessary to overcome the resistance?

24 A. Yes, sir.

25 Q. You have been trained in that, I take it?



169



1 A. Yes, sir.

2 Q. If necessary, you would call for help?

3 A. Yes, sir.

4 Q. If necessary you would call for Overland Park

5 Police, or you would call when the time -- when

6 you had time to place the call?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Are you occasionally called by sales associates

9 who ask you to come to their department because

10 of suspicious behavior?

11 A. Yes, sir.

12 Q. Have sales associates ever asked you to come

13 when no suspicious acts have been carried out,

14 but just because a sales associates believes

15 that a shopper appears suspicious? I am trying

16 to make it -- you don't understand the question,

17 I can tell. Let me try again.

18 I am trying to make a distinction

19 between suspicious conduct and suspicious

20 appearance. Do you know what I mean by the two?

21 A. Yes, sir.

22 Q. Have you ever been called by a sales associates

23 to come because of what the associate believed

24 was suspicious appearance that was not related

25 to any suspicious conduct?



170



1 A. No.

2 Q. Sales associates have only called you for

3 assistance when they observed suspicious

4 conduct?

5 A. Yes, sir.

6 Q. Never solely on the basis of suspicious

7 appearance?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Yes, that's correct?

10 A. Yes, that's correct.

11 Q. They have never called you, yes, that's correct?

12 A. That's correct.

13 Q. That was my fault for asking the question

14 backwards.

15 Have you ever heard a complaint by

16 African-American shoppers that they are

17 subjected to tighter surveillance at the

18 Dillard's in Oak Park than are other shoppers?

19 A. No, sir.

20 Q. Have you ever heard that as being an issue at

21 Dillard's?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Has it ever been discussed with you prior to

24 this lawsuit being filed?

25 A. No, sir.



171



1 Q. Have you ever heard any other security officers

2 say that they are careful not to stop

3 African-Americans solely because of their race?

4 A. No, sir.

5 Q. It's just never an issue?

6 A. No, sir. It's not an issue.

7 Q. Are you aware of any complaints having been

8 brought by African-Americans concerning their

9 treatment at Dillard's because of their race,

10 discriminatory treatment? I am referring to

11 shoppers, not to employees?

12 A. No, sir.

13 Q. Have you ever been called to investigate what

14 turned out to be an incident in which a shopper

15 believed she or he had been discriminated

16 against in some way because of his or her race?

17 A. No. I need to back up. I have been called to

18 an area before where there is only one

19 associate, and there might be ten people coming

20 through the area, and they just wanted

21 additional security.

22 Q. Not because of the appearance of any of those

23 ten people, but because of the numbers of

24 customers so out-numbered the associate?

25 A. Yes, it's the numbers.



172



1 Q. Do you know what is meant by the phrase loss

2 prevention? Have you heard that phrase used?

3 A. I have heard it used.

4 Q. Have you ever received any specific training in

5 loss prevention?

6 A. No, except just on-the-job training.

7 Q. At Dillard's?

8 A. Yes, sir.

9 Q. That on-the-job training would be provided to

10 you by fellow security officers with more

11 experience than you?

12 A. Yes, sir.

13 Q. Have you ever had any specific training in

14 private security work other than the on-the-job

15 training at Dillard's?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Have you ever had any specific training in

18 retail security other than the on-the-job

19 training at Dillard's?

20 A. No.

21 Q. On April 5th, 1996, when you were working at

22 Dillard's as a security officer, were you

23 carrying your weapon?

24 A. Yes, sir.

25 Q. Do you carry it completely concealed?



173



1 A. Yes, sir.

2 Q. Where do you carry it?

3 A. I could either carry it on my back here, on my

4 holster, or I will carry it in my right front

5 pocket.

6 Q. Under your shirt in the back?

7 A. Yes, sir. Never exposed.

8 Q. So anyone you were talking to would not know for

9 sure that you had a weapon?

10 A. That's correct.

11 Q. During this incident on April 5th your weapon

12 was never exposed, was it?

13 A. No, sir.

14 Q. Let me ask the question better. On the April

15 5th date, was your weapon ever exposed?

16 A. No, sir, it was concealed.

17 Q. I asked that backwards again. Sorry.

18 Do you know whether or not in recent

19 years Dillard's has ever been cautioned by

20 anyone about overly aggressive security tactics

21 being used against shoppers?

22 A. No, sir.

23 Q. Do you know whether or not Dillard's has ever

24 been cautioned by anyone about security officers

25 being overly aggressive in that they stop



174



1 shoppers without first meeting Dillard's

2 requirements for evidence or suspicion of

3 wrongdoing?

4 A. No, sir.

5 Q. Has Dillard's ever cautioned you that in any

6 instances you have not followed Dillard's rules

7 or procedures?

8 A. No, sir.

9 Q. Has Dillard's ever cautioned you that you have

10 failed to follow the requirements of your job

11 objectives?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Do you know whether or not anyone at Dillard's

14 has ever reviewed this April 5th incident we

15 have been talking about here today with respect

16 to determining if your conduct met the

17 objectives, rules and procedures of Dillard's?

18 A. I have no idea. Well, Marvie Dirks is the one

19 that gets my report, so she apparently has

20 reviewed my report.

21 Q. You are not aware of any conclusions that she

22 has come to after reviewing your reports?

23 A. No, sir.

24 Q. Has anything been said to you, either favorable

25 or unfavorable, about your conduct on this April



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1 5th, 1996, incident by Dillard's employees?

2 A. No, sir.

3 Q. Do you know whether or not Dillard's provides

4 any training with respect to dealing with

5 customers of different racial backgrounds?

6 A. I have no idea.

7 Q. If so, you have not participated in any, is that

8 correct?

9 A. That's correct.

10 Q. Do you know what is meant by the phrase cultural

11 diversity training?

12 A. I have heard the term.

13 Q. What does it mean to you?

14 A. It's the treatment of people in general.

15 Q. Do you know what cultural diversity training

16 consists of?

17 A. No, sir.

18 Q. Are you familiar with the phrase sensitivity

19 training?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Do you know what sensitivity training consists

22 of?

23 A. Dealing with people.

24 Q. What the training consists of, about sensitivity

25 training, how the training goes on, what is



176



1 done?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Have you ever participated in sensitivity

4 training?

5 A. I don't think so.

6 Q. Have you ever participated in cultural diversity

7 training?

8 A. I cannot recall.

9 Q. Does Kansas Highway Patrol offer any cultural

10 diversity training programs?

11 A. I cannot recall.

12 Q. If it does, have you participated in any of

13 them?

14 A. I cannot recall all the training that I have

15 had.

16 Q. Is most of your activity on the job at Dillard's

17 self-initiated as opposed to being responsive to

18 calls for assistance?

19 A. Self-initiated.

20 Q. Let's go back for a minute to your belief that

21 the younger of the two females was, in fact,

22 stealing some item when you stopped her. Do you

23 have a belief as to whether or not the two adult

24 females were working together to steal an item

25 from Dillard's?



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1 A. I do not know.

2 Q. At the time you stopped them, you stopped both

3 of them, correct?

4 A. Yes, sir.

5 Q. In this particular instance why did you not

6 allow the adults to depart the store before you

7 stopped them?

8 A. Because I wanted to check the bag with the

9 receipt of Dillard's while they were still

10 inside Dillard's. And I was still inside

11 Dillard's, I identified myself as Dillard's

12 security.

13 Q. Why did you want to check it inside Dillard's as

14 opposed to outside the door?

15 A. Because they were still inside our store, and I

16 wanted to check.

17 Q. Did they appear to be heading for the exit when

18 you stopped them?

19 A. Yes, sir.

20 Q. Why didn't you wait to let them get outside

21 before you checked them?

22 A. I just wanted to stop them inside the store and

23 visit with them.

24 Q. Why did you want to stop them inside the store

25 and visit with them?



178



1 A. I just did.

2 Q. No particular reason?

3 A. I wanted to stop them inside the store, and

4 explain what was told to me, and that I could

5 verify what they had in their sack right then

6 and there.

7 Q. I know that's what you did. Now, I want to know

8 why you did it there.

9 A. I just explained why.

10 Q. I missed it. Why did you stop them inside the

11 store?

12 A. Because I wanted to stay inside our store and go

13 ahead and verify right then and there. If I had

14 a problem with a receipt, I would have to bring

15 them back inside the store. I did not want to

16 detain them of not being able to allow them to

17 do shopping outside the store of Dillard's.

18 Q. Did you believe you had more authority to stop

19 them while they were inside Dillard's as opposed

20 to outside Dillard's?

21 A. No, sir.

22 Q. Do you think they were more likely to stop

23 voluntarily inside Dillard's as opposed to

24 outside Dillard's, or would it be the same?

25 A. I just chose to stop them inside the store.



179



1 Q. Have you ever stopped shoppers inside the

2 Dillard's store and checked their bag and found

3 merchandise for which there was no receipt?

4 A. Yes, sir.

5 Q. What do you do then?

6 A. If we know that they have shoplifted and they

7 have stayed inside our store, we will detain

8 them and call Overland Park Police Department

9 and advise them of our situation, and it's up to

10 them what they want to do. If they are going to

11 charge them or just let them go on their way.

12 Q. Does Overland Park Police sometimes not charge

13 them because they were stopped inside the store?

14 A. Yes, sir.

15 Q. So the stopping inside the store then serves the

16 purpose not of prosecuting the wrong doer, but

17 of recovering the merchandise, is that correct?

18 MS. KOCH: I object to the extent it

19 mischaracterizes what the witness said. He

20 said sometimes Overland Park will charge them

21 and sometime the won't.

22 MR. BENSON: Well, I asked another

23 question. Let me go back and make sure it is

24 clear.

25 Q. (By Mr. Benson) In the case where Overland Park



180



1 decides not to prosecute them, I asked you if

2 that happened, and you said yes, sometimes?

3 A. Yes, sir.

4 Q. In those instances where you have stopped them

5 inside the store with merchandise for which they

6 do not have a receipt and Overland Park chooses

7 not to file charges against them, your stopping

8 them inside the store serves the store purpose

9 of recovering merchandise, is that correct?

10 A. Yes, sir.

11 Q. Do you have any approximate idea of what

12 percentage the African-American population is in

13 Johnson County, Kansas?

14 A. No, sir.

15 Q. Do you have any idea of what the approximate

16 percentage of African-American shoppers at

17 Dillard's in Oak Park Mall is?

18 A. No, sir.

19 Q. Do you have any reason to believe that it

20 substantially differs from the black population

21 residents in the county.

22 MS. KOCH: Object to the question as

23 lacking proper foundation because the witness

24 said he doesn't know the percentage in the

25 county.



181



1 Q. (By Mr. Benson) I'm not asking the percentage.

2 I will repeat the question. Mr. Wilson, do you

3 know whether or not there is any significant

4 difference in the percentage of blacks who shop

5 at Oak Park Mall in Johnson County compared to

6 the percentage of blacks who reside in Johnson

7 County?

8 MS. KOCH: Object to the question as

9 calling for speculation.

10 Q. (By Mr. Benson) I asked if you know. Do you

11 know?

12 A. No, I do not.

13 Q. Do you have any reason to believe there is a

14 substantial difference between the race of

15 shoppers at Dillard's in Oak Park Mall and the

16 race of the residents of Johnson County?

17 MS. KOCH: I object to the form of the

18 question as calling for speculation.

19 MR. BENSON: I asked him if he knows.

20 A. No, I do not know.

21 Q. (By Mr. Benson) Do you know any facts or

22 circumstances that could cause the percentages

23 of African-American shoppers at Dillard's at Oak

24 Park Mall to differ substantially from the

25 percentage of blacks resident in Johnson County?



182



1 MS. KOCH: Object to the form of the

2 question as calling for speculation.

3 Q. (By Mr. Benson) Do you know?

4 A. No, I do not.

5 Q. Of the 12 highway patrol troopers for whom you

6 have direct line supervision, are any of them

7 African-Americans?

8 A. Yes, sir.

9 Q. How many?

10 A. One.

11 Q. How long has that trooper been with the Kansas

12 Highway Patrol?

13 A. I believe he started in May of last year.

14 Q. This is the one that just came off probation you

15 were referring to?

16 A. Yes, one of them, yes, sir, because I had three.

17 Q. Three who came off probation?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. One was an African-American?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Does he work at Dillard's?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. As a security officer?

24 A. Yes, sir.

25 Q. What is his name?



183



1 A. Greg Smith.

2 Q. Have you ever had any conversations with Greg

3 Smith about how African-American shoppers are

4 treated at Dillard's in Oak Park Mall?

5 A. No, sir.

6 Q. Has the number of hours you worked at Dillard's

7 increased, decreased or stayed about the same

8 since you first started?

9 A. I am in a unique situation.

10 Q. What is unique about your situation?

11 A. That I only take this job with Dillard's as idle

12 time that I have on my hands. My wife and I do

13 not have kids, and so when she is working, why

14 sit idle on my hands at home. So I get out and

15 do this. I am not dependent on this Dillard's

16 job for the income.

17 Q. You consider this to be an interesting way to

18 spend your time?

19 A. I enjoy it.

20 Q. In part you do it for the enjoyment you get out

21 of it, is that correct?

22 A. No. Providing my services to Dillard's.

23 Q. You enjoy doing that?

24 A. I enjoy all my jobs.

25 Q. Do you know who Bill Evans is?



184



1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Who is he?

3 A. He is an Overland Park motor officer.

4 Q. Have you had any contact with him?

5 A. Yes, sir.

6 Q. Have you discussed this particular case with

7 him?

8 A. No, sir.

9 Q. What is his race?

10 A. He is an older white gentleman.

11 Q. Have you ever discussed with him the treatment

12 of African-Americans at Dillard's in Oak Park?

13 A. No, sir.

14 Q. Are you familiar with the term suspect profile?

15 A. Yes, sir.

16 Q. What does that term mean to you?

17 A. That varies because being on the Highway Patrol

18 we are looking at people all the time. We are

19 looking for people who are suspected of carrying

20 illegal drugs, and I have heard that used

21 before, profiling couriers.

22 Q. A suspect profile would be a set of

23 characteristics that gives suspicion that a

24 crime may be being committed?

25 A. I don't think you can say crime being committed.



185



1 It can just cause you to look at somebody a

2 little bit closer, maybe.

3 Q. A suspect profile would be a set of

4 characteristics that would cause a law

5 enforcement officer to look at a person more

6 closely, is that a fair definition?

7 A. Would you repeat that?

8 MR. BENSON: Would you read that

9 back?

10 (The pending question was read by the

11 reporter.)

12 A. I believe it's a situation at hand that you have

13 to look at. You can't just look at ten people

14 and pick something out to say I am going to

15 watch you because you have that yellow tie on.

16 I need to have something that is inconsistent,

17 out of the normal.

18 Q. (By Mr. Benson) Since you do not regularly use

19 Dillard's security incident log book, Dillard's

20 would not have any way of keeping track of the

21 number of times you searched a customer's bag

22 and found nothing amiss, is that correct?

23 A. Unless a report was written.

24 Q. You wouldn't normally write reports on those,

25 though, would you?



186



1 A. No, sir.

2 Q. Is that correct?

3 A. That's correct.

4 Q. Do other security officers use the security

5 incident department log book more frequently

6 than you?

7 A. I have no idea. I never look at it.

8 Q. When you write reports, do you always note the

9 race of the person with whom you are dealing in

10 a written report?

11 A. Yes, sir.

12 Q. Why is it that you always write the race of the

13 person you are dealing with when you are writing

14 an incident report?

15 A. There are a couple of reasons. It helps refresh

16 me memory, and it also tricks that attorneys try

17 to play coming into court, they might try to

18 bring in a decoy and have me identify that

19 person. It refreshes my memory, so those are

20 the reasons.

21 Q. If you wrote down Hispanic female, and the

22 defense attorney brought in an Hispanic female,

23 they could still get away with it?

24 A. They could.

25 Q. Providing the race of a person narrows the



187



1 options for the defense attorney, is that

2 correct?

3 A. I can't speak for the defense.

4 Q. For what other reasons do you note the race of

5 persons with whom you have dealt when you fill

6 out a Dillard's security report?

7 A. As I stated, it helps refresh my memory, and

8 also on the Dillard's security report, they have

9 got a space on here for the race and the sex on

10 this report.

11 Q. And you wrote up there where it says Subject No.

12 1, do you see that?

13 A. Yes, sir.

14 Q. What did you write?

15 A. Black.

16 Q. A "B" for black.

17 A. Yes, sir.

18 Q. And for Subject No. 2?

19 A. "B" for back.

20 Q. Is that how you write your Bs?

21 A. Yes, sir.

22 Q. So you had identified the subjects as both being

23 blacks, in the narrative, why was it necessary

24 also to write black to describe the females?

25 A. It's just doing police work for 23 years.



188



1 Q. That's the way it's always done?

2 A. That's the way I apparently have done my

3 reports, and it's just not necessarily for a

4 black female, I could put a white male referring

5 to -- in my reports.

6 Q. It's just your practice that any time you

7 identify someone in a report you put that

8 person's race in?

9 A. There might have been times I could have omitted

10 it, but I try to put it down.

11 Q. Is it your practice to always put down the race

12 when the person is a minority?

13 A. It doesn't matter.

14 Q. If it's omitted, is it the assumption, where it

15 does not say the race of person, that that

16 person was a white?

17 A. Oh, no.

18 Q. If you omitted it somewhere it would have been

19 an accidental omission?

20 A. Yes, sir.

21 Q. And the person that you were identifying could

22 have been white or could have been black or

23 Hispanic?

24 A. Yes, sir.

25 Q. Do you know Security Officer Cleveland?



189



1 A. Yes, sir.

2 Q. Did you talk to him after you had stopped the

3 two females in this case but before you wrote

4 your report?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Did he walk up to you where you were just as you

7 were finishing your contact with the two

8 females?

9 A. I don't know where I met up with Officer

10 Cleveland.

11 Q. Had he observed any of the incident?

12 A. I don't believe so.

13 Q. Do you know who Byron Pierce is?

14 A. Yes, sir.

15 Q. Who is he?

16 A. He is an Overland Park -- I believe a detective.

17 Q. Does he work part-time security at Dillard's?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Do you know who Greg Powell is?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Who is he?

22 A. He is an Overland Park police officer.

23 Q. Does he work part-time security at Dillard's?

24 A. No. He used to.

25 Q. Did he work part-time security at Dillard's



190



1 during any period of time you were also there?

2 A. Yes, sir.

3 Q. Do you know who David Cole is?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Do you know who Michael Imber is?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Have you had any discussions with Byron Pierce

8 or Greg Powell about the treatment of

9 African-American customers at Dillard's?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Do you know Byron Pierce's wife?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Never met her?

14 A. No, sir.

15 Q. Let me restate that. Have you ever met her?

16 A. No, I have never met her.

17 MR. BENSON: Let's take a short

18 break.

19 (A recess was taken.)

20 Q. (By Mr. Benson) Mr. Wilson, you said that you

21 mainly work at Dillard's when your wife is

22 working other jobs, is that correct?

23 A. No, she has a job.

24 Q. You mainly work at Dillard's when your wife is

25 working at her job?



191



1 A. Yes, sir.

2 Q. Where does she work?

3 A. She is a general manager for an Applebee's

4 Restaurant.

5 Q. Does she work regular hours or regular shifts?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Hers float around, too?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Do you recall what day of the week this April 5,

10 1996, incident was?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Was it a weekend?

13 A. I don't know.

14 Q. Do you recall whether your wife was working at

15 Applebee's that day?

16 A. No, I don't.

17 Q. Were you present when the Overland Park police

18 officers responded to a call in this case?

19 A. I talked to an officer at some point.

20 Q. After you had written your report?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did you talk to an officer on another day after

23 this incident?

24 A. I don't believe so.

25 Q. You went into this vacant office to write your



192



1 report immediately after you broke off contact

2 with the two females, correct?

3 A. Yes, sir.

4 Q. So you didn't talk to the officer from Overland

5 Park until after you had written your report, is

6 that correct?

7 A. I can't recall.

8 Q. Did the Overland Park police officer come to

9 this vacant office where you were located?

10 A. I can't recall.

11 Q. Do you recall who you talked to at Overland

12 Park?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Male or female?

15 A. I can't recall.

16 Q. Patrol officer or sergeant?

17 A. I can't recall.

18 Q. What is Mr. Martens' title?

19 A. At Dillard's?

20 Q. Yes.

21 A. Security officer.

22 Q. He has the same position you do?

23 A. Yes, sir.

24 Q. Are you familiar with a report which he has

25 prepared and updated that compiles incident



193



1 reports?

2 A. I have seen a list of names.

3 Q. That's all you have seen is a list of names?

4 A. Yes.

5 MR. BENSON: Off the record.

6 (Discussion off the record.)

7 Q. (By Mr. Benson) When did you see it?

8 A. I have seen it numerous times.

9 Q. Is it used in the course of your work at

10 Dillard's?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. How is it used?

13 A. If I stop a person that has been detained and we

14 are waiting for Overland Park Police Department,

15 we are going to check that and see if they have

16 been barred from Dillard's. And if they are

17 barred, then we will go ahead and do a criminal

18 trespass complaint.

19 Q. Are any of those data computerized?

20 A. I have no idea how he keeps that.

21 Q. When you want to check, and when you are

22 waiting for Overland Park to appear, and you

23 want to check to see if a person has been barred

24 from Dillard's, do you check manual records or

25 computer?



194



1 A. No, it's on numerous pages.

2 Q. You have to read down through the list looking

3 for the name?

4 A. Alphabetical order, yes, sir.

5 Q. Did you do that in this case involving Hampton

6 or Cooper?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Does Dillard's keep or compile any other lists

9 of suspected shoplifters other than this Martens

10 list?

11 A. Not that I am aware of.

12 Q. Does it post names or photographs in the

13 security room?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Does this Martens list tell who is barred from

16 Dillard's?

17 A. No.

18 Q. So when you look down the Martens list while you

19 have someone in detention waiting for Overland

20 Park police to arrive, how can you tell whether

21 or not they have been barred from Dillard's?

22 A. We have to look up in a file, try and pull that

23 case file.

24 Q. You first look for the name on the Martens list,

25 correct?



195



1 A. Yes, sir.

2 Q. And if you find the name on the list there will

3 be a case file number there, on the Martens

4 list?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And you use that number to go pull the file

7 itself?

8 A. By name.

9 Q. By name?

10 A. Yes, sir.

11 Q. Are the files listed alphabetically?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. You can just look through the files directly

14 without having to go to the Martens list,

15 couldn't you?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Why do you go to the Martens list?

18 A. That's what I use.

19 Q. Does Dillard's keep any other list except in

20 individual files of the names of persons who are

21 barred from Dillard's?

22 A. I have no idea.

23 Q. Are you allowed, given the rules of your

24 employment with the Kansas Highway Patrol, to

25 use any Kansas Highway Patrol data or



196



1 information in your part-time job at Dillard's?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Have you ever used Kansas Highway Patrol

4 information in your job at Dillard's?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. In doing so, did you violate the Kansas Highway

7 Patrol rule or regulation prohibiting that use?

8 A. I sure did.

9 Q. When was that?

10 A. I have no idea. I ran a tag, license plate tag.

11 Q. Was that reported to the Kansas Highway Patrol?

12 A. As?

13 Q. As a you having used the Kansas Highway Patrol

14 information in your job at Dillard's?

15 Let me rephrase the question. Do any

16 of your supervisors at the Kansas Highway Patrol

17 know that you violated the Kansas Highway Patrol

18 rule or regulation in using Kansas Highway

19 Patrol data in your part-time job at Dillard's?

20 A. I will restate. I didn't violate, I just ran a

21 tag, and I can run a tag as a police officer.

22 From Dillard's, I have run a tag. So I did not

23 -- no, I not violate. I am sorry. I

24 misunderstood your question.

25 Q. Does the Kansas Highway Patrol have a rule or



197



1 regulation that is intended to prevent Kansas

2 Highway Patrol officers from using Kansas

3 Highway Patrol data or resources during their

4 off duty jobs?

5 A. I have no idea.

6 Q. Has anyone ever warned you about not using

7 Kansas Highway Patrol data or resources in your

8 part-time job at Dillard's?

9 A. No.

10 Q. In 1977 were you suspended by the Kansas Highway

11 Patrol for a short period of time?

12 A. 15 days.

13 Q. What was that for?

14 A. For an injury that I had that I said I had it on

15 duty and my conscious got to me and I went to

16 the doctor and said I didn't do it on duty. So

17 I went to my supervisor and told him, and I took

18 15 days suspension.

19 Q. The suspension was for falsely reporting you had

20 been injured on duty when, in fact, you had not

21 been injured on duty?

22 A. Correct.

23 Q. Have you ever reported to Dillard's any acts or

24 conduct by Dillard's security officers that you

25 believed were improper or inappropriate?



198



1 A. Yes.

2 Q. When most recently?

3 A. I cannot recall when.

4 Q. In the two plus years that you have been

5 employed by Dillard's, on how many occasions

6 have you reported inappropriate or improper

7 conduct by other security officers?

8 A. I think maybe once or twice.

9 Q. Are the officers about whom you reported still

10 employed at Dillard's as security officers?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. What kinds of incidents did you report?

13 A. One was with a mall security officer, they were

14 arguing. I was a mediator for that, just saying

15 -- you know, two stubborn people, and I jumped

16 in between.

17 Q. Did that involve wrongdoing by the Dillard's

18 security officer?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Or improper conduct or inappropriate conduct?

21 A. I thought it is inappropriate conduct toward

22 another fellow officer.

23 Q. Was it in public or private?

24 A. It was in public.

25 Q. What other incidents involving wrongdoing,



199



1 improper or inappropriate conduct, have you

2 reported to Dillard's?

3 A. Some laziness of officers.

4 Q. What kind of laziness or how did this laziness

5 manifest itself?

6 A. I am a firm believer if you are working for

7 somebody you are getting paid to do the job

8 instead of standing around not doing your job.

9 Q. Standing around talking?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. You reported that by other security officers?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. On how many occasions?

14 A. Like I said, once.

15 Q. This incident with the mall security officer

16 arguing with the Dillard's security officer,

17 about when did that take place, within the last

18 year or so?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Where did it take place?

21 A. On the second level of the mall.

22 Q. Who was the Dillard's security officer involved?

23 A. Tommy Catania.

24 Q. How do you spell the last name?

25 A. C-a-t-a-n-i-a.



200



1 Q. Who was the mall security officer?

2 A. Officer Andy Black from the Overland Park Police

3 Department.

4 Q. He was working part time as a mall security

5 officer?

6 A. Yes, sir.

7 Q. Was the argument about Catania having stopped

8 some shoplifting suspects?

9 A. No.

10 Q. What was it about?

11 A. We observed some people shoplifting in another

12 store, called mall security and mall security

13 didn't want to do anything about it. One

14 thought, well, the other one needs to do it, et

15 cetera.

16 Q. You say "we," you and Catania, is that the "we"

17 you were referring to?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. You and Catania observed some shoplifting going

20 on in another store, not Dillard's?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. What were you doing in the other store?

23 A. We weren't. We were out in the mall, public

24 access.

25 Q. And looked into the other store?



201



1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And saw shoplifting occur?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Had you followed the suspect from Dillard's?

5 A. I believe so.

6 Q. Were there two suspects involved?

7 A. I cannot recall how many.

8 Q. They were black females, right?

9 A. I cannot recall.

10 Q. You don't recall the race?

11 A. No, sir.

12 Q. Did you write a report about this incident?

13 A. No, sir.

14 Q. Could they have been black females?

15 A. Yes, they could have been.

16 Q. When you reported this incident did you report

17 it in writing or verbally?

18 A. Verbally.

19 Q. To whom?

20 A. Other officers.

21 Q. Did you report it to anybody in a supervisory

22 position?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Earlier when I asked you if you had ever

25 reported any wrongdoing, improper or



202



1 inappropriate conduct, you took my question to

2 mean reported it to anybody, not just to a

3 supervisor?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Let me reask that question, then, but focus it

6 on reporting it to a supervisor.

7 Have you ever reported to a Dillard's

8 supervisor any wrongdoing, improper or

9 inappropriate conduct by a Dillard's security

10 officer?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. What incident was that?

13 A. Laziness.

14 Q. You reported on one or two occasion, I believe

15 you said, laziness to a supervisor?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. What security officer did that involve, or do

18 you recall?

19 A. I don't recall.

20 Q. This incident involving the argument in public

21 between a mall security officer and a Dillard's

22 security officer, that took place within the

23 last 12 months, that you acted as a mediator in,

24 did you report that to any supervisor of

25 Dillard's?



203



1 A. I can't recall.

2 Q. What fellow security officers did you report

3 that to?

4 A. I can't recall that.

5 Q. Do you know if any document exists concerning

6 that incident?

7 A. I do not know.

8 Q. Were the two suspects ever approached by any

9 security officer, to your knowledge?

10 A. I can't recall on that.

11 Q. What had caused you to suspect that the persons

12 you followed from Dillard's out in the mall and

13 into the other store required you to follow

14 them?

15 A. I don't know if I followed them or I just

16 happened to come upon Officer Catania at that

17 time.

18 Q. If they had been followed, Catania was the one

19 who followed them out of Dillard's?

20 A. He could have.

21 Q. When you are on duty you are supposed to be in

22 Dillard's, are you not, not working the mall?

23 A. We had a little latitude.

24 Q. You sometimes do go out in the mall?

25 A. We cross from one side to the other side, from



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1 the north store to the south store.

2 Q. Is that what you were doing on this occasion?

3 A. Boy, I can't recall.

4 Q. From the time you clock in to the time you clock

5 out at Dillard's do you consider yourself to be

6 on duty?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Do you take breaks?

9 A. Occasional.

10 Q. On average how long is a shift at Dillard's when

11 you are working part time?

12 A. There not a normal time for me.

13 Q. Are they usually at least four or six hours long

14 unless you are called away by an emergency?

15 A. I can't give you a time. I have had anywhere

16 from two hours up to 13 hours.

17 Q. How many security officers are usually on duty

18 at any given time at Dillard's?

19 A. It's hard to say.

20 Q. What is the minimum to the maximum?

21 A. I'm not in charge of that.

22 Q. Other than Exhibits 1 and 2, do you have any

23 other written instructions as to what your job

24 duties are?

25 A. I would have to check my personal file at home.



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1 Q. Would you do that and if you find anything would

2 you report it to Ms. Koch?

3 A. I sure will.

4 Q. Could you do that within the next day or two?

5 A. I will be home in the next day or two.

6 MS. KOCH: We believe you have

7 everything there is, but we will check and see

8 if there is anything additional.

9 A. I think it was just two items like this.

10 MS. KOCH: I do note just for the

11 record that one of the items was dated 2-97. I

12 believe we also provided you with something

13 dated something '96.

14 (Wilson Deposition Exhibit No. 5 was

15 marked for identification.)

16 Q. (By Mr. Benson) Now I am showing you Deposition

17 Exhibit 5, which is the objectives document, but

18 it has the date down at the bottom of 2-27-96,

19 do you see that?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. As best as you can recall now, do we have a

22 complete set of the written job duties and

23 descriptions?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. A couple of more details. Kathy is so smart she



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1 can always think of more questions.

2 When the two females were at the

3 checkout counter, the cashier, back in infants,

4 did you notice which one of the adults made the

5 purchases or paid for it?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Do you recall who was carrying the Dillard's bag

8 when they left the cashier's station?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Did you ever see anyone put anything into the

11 Dillard's bag after they left the cashier's

12 station?

13 A. No.

14 Q. This dark fabric item that was rolled up that

15 the young female had when you were observing

16 her, did you notice anything glittery on it that

17 might have been a zipper?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Did you notice any price tags or other

20 identifying tags on it?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Did you notice anything about it whatsoever

23 other than it was dark and fabric and rolled up

24 and the dimensions you have earlier described?

25 A. No.



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1 (Discussion off the record.)

2 Q. (By Mr. Benson) Now, at the end, when you were

3 talking to the two of them -- after you had

4 stopped them, and the older woman was getting

5 louder and louder and louder, did you ever tell

6 her that if she didn't calm down you would have

7 her forcibly ejected from the store?

8 A. Not forcibly.

9 Q. Did you tell her that you would have her

10 ejected?

11 A. No. I told her Overland Park Police Department

12 would be called in, that was Dillard's policy.

13 They would be told the situation, and we would

14 ask for them to leave the store.

15 Q. When you stepped in front of the two women as

16 they were approaching the exit and said, "Hello,

17 I am Dillard's security," then the next thing

18 you told them was someone had seen them

19 concealing some item, concealing some object

20 inside a coat?

21 A. Inside a coat.

22 Q. And then you said, "I would like to look in your

23 bag," and you reached for the bag?

24 A. She handed it to me.

25 Q. She handed it to you and you took the bag?



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1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And nothing was said at that time, is that

3 correct? You said, "I would like to look in the

4 bag," and her answer was she handed you the bag?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And then as you were taking the items out is

7 when she started talking and gradually got

8 louder and louder and louder?

9 A. I believe before I took the items out.

10 Q. But after you had the bag --

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. -- she started saying we shop here and we

13 purchased some items and forth, is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. That was the first thing that the older woman

16 had said after you stopped her, is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Have you discussed this incident with Jack

19 Rodgers?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. When did you discuss it with him?

22 A. Advised him I had been notified of the situation

23 and I was going to be going in for a

24 deposition.

25 Q. Did you talk to him about what had happened?



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1 A. No.

2 Q. You just told him about the lawsuit and you were

3 going to be deposed?

4 A. Yes, sir.

5 Q. Did he ask you any questions about what had

6 happened?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Does Jack Rodgers exercise any day-to-day

9 supervision over the security detachment at

10 Dillard's?

11 A. He is the store -- he is the one in charge of

12 that store.

13 Q. But does he personally involve himself in

14 security matters or does he leave that to Marvie

15 Dirks and others?

16 A. He has been involved in some.

17 Q. Have you ever discussed with him the rules,

18 regulations and objectives of security work at

19 Dillard's?

20 A. No, sir. I would like to clarify my answer on

21 Mr. Rodgers' involvement.

22 Q. Okay.

23 A. That's about cameras, about buying additional

24 security cameras on that part.

25 Q. Do you know who Susan Hickey is?



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1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Who is she, what is her employment at Dillard's,

3 or what was it?

4 A. I think she was an assistant ASM.

5 Q. Did you ever discuss this incident with her?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. When did you discuss it with her?

8 A. The day.

9 Q. The day of the incident?

10 A. Yes, sir.

11 Q. After you had written your report?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. After you had talked to the Overland Park

14 police?

15 A. I cannot say exactly when.

16 Q. Did she initiate the conversation or did you?

17 A. I cannot recall.

18 Q. Had she observed any aspect of it, of the

19 incident? Had she seen either Hampton or Cooper

20 or your interaction with them?

21 A. No, not that I can recall.

22 Q. Was she the ASM on duty at that time?

23 A. I believe she was, and she was called to

24 customer service.

25 Q. Did you speak with her after she had been called



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1 to customer service?

2 A. Yes, I had.

3 Q. You didn't brief her before she went to customer

4 service, you talked to her after she had been at

5 customer service?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did she ask you what had happened?

8 A. I believe so.

9 Q. What did you tell her?

10 A. Exactly what transpired.

11 Q. Did you give her a copy of your report at that

12 time?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Did you tell her whether or not you believed

15 that either Hampton or Cooper had, in fact,

16 stolen merchandise from Dillard's?

17 A. I gave her the facts as I have stated today.

18 Q. You didn't state one way or another whether you

19 believe either of them had stolen any

20 merchandise?

21 A. I cannot recall exactly what I told to her.

22 MR. BENSON: No further questions.

23 MS. KOCH: I have a couple of

24 questions.

25 EXAMINATION BY MS. KOCH:



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1 Q. Mr. Wilson, Mr. Benson asked you earlier about

2 situations where you will physically detain

3 somebody in the Dillard's store. Was the

4 situation with Ms. Cooper and Ms. Hampton on

5 April 5th, 1996, one of the situations you were

6 talking about where you would physically detain

7 someone?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Why not?

10 A. Because this was an investigative stage, to

11 report to them what I observed, and what was

12 told to me, what was observed from an associate.

13 Q. Is there a difference between an apprehension

14 and an investigative stop?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. What is the difference?

17 A. Apprehension would be the people would not be

18 free to leave, they would be held for the

19 Overland Park Police Department to arrive. The

20 investigative part is the investigative part.

21 They are not detained.

22 Q. Was the situation with Ms. Cooper and Ms.

23 Hampton on April 5th, 1996, an apprehension?

24 A. No.

25 Q. What would you have done, if anything, if Ms.



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1 Hampton and Ms. Cooper had refused to stop when

2 you approached them on April 5th, 1996?

3 A. I would have continued walking with them to try

4 and tell them why I was trying to talk to them.

5 Q. What if they had refused to give you the

6 shopping bag?

7 A. There was nothing I could have done.

8 Q. Would you have let them go?

9 A. Yes.

10 MS. KOCH: I have no further questions

11 at this time.

12 EXAMINATION BY MR. BENSON:

13 Q. Mr. Wilson, why is there nothing you could have

14 done?

15 A. Because it was an investigative stage.

16 Q. By investigative stage, meaning that you were

17 not certain that any item had been stolen?

18 A. We believed an item had been stolen.

19 Q. What are the factual differences between an

20 investigative stop and an apprehension?

21 A. Well, in the investigative stage the people are

22 free to leave.

23 Q. That's in your mind, you know that if they

24 wanted to keep going, you would let them go?

25 A. Yes, sir.



214



1 Q. And that's an investigative stop?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. In an apprehension, you know, in your mind, if

4 they try to leave you are going to try to hold

5 on to them and Overland Park police, is that

6 correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Are there any other differences between an

9 apprehension and an investigative stop?

10 A. No.

11 Q. And the facts that justify one or the other,

12 everything else, all the other circumstances are

13 the same?

14 A. Well, I don't know what circumstances you are

15 talking about.

16 Q. I am asking you to describe circumstances that

17 would distinguish between what is an

18 investigative stop and what is an apprehension?

19 A. If I saw the person conceal an item, my eyes

20 personally, I would make an apprehension, that I

21 know it is concealed on their person, that is

22 with my eyes.

23 Q. If a sales associate reported to you that they

24 had seen with their eyes a concealment on the

25 person, is that sufficient reason for an



215



1 apprehension?

2 A. You have to go into more detail. If they saw

3 them put it in sacks, loading up -- they saw

4 them take a pile of clothes and put them in a

5 sack, they are walking out of the store, I would

6 make an apprehension.

7 Q. What if the sales associates says, "I saw two

8 women shopping at the jewelry counter, and where

9 the sales associate that was waiting on them was

10 distracted, one of them picked up a watch and

11 put it under her arm, and there they are, they

12 are heading toward the exit." Is that

13 sufficient information for you to make an

14 apprehension?

15 A. No.

16 Q. You would just stop them and say, "May I look

17 under your arm," and if they said no, you would

18 let them keep going?

19 A. I would tell them the situation.

20 Q. If the person said, "No, you can't look under my

21 arm, I am leaving," and started walking toward

22 the door, you would let them go?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And the reason for that is you didn't see it

25 with your eyes, only the sales associate saw it



216



1 with her eyes?

2 A. As I stated earlier, the circumstances on a

3 whole lot of items compared to one item.

4 Q. Does it have to do with the value of the

5 items?

6 A. I don't know the value.

7 Q. Why would you be concerned about a whole lot of

8 inexpensive item as opposed to, say, one

9 expensive item?

10 A. I don't know what each item is when an associate

11 tells me they saw a person pick up a pile of

12 clothes, put them in a sack, and watched the

13 person barely able to carry the bag out of the

14 store, versus one item, a piece of jewelry, that

15 it could have been the person's own jewelry that

16 they had in their pocket or their hand.

17 Q. Sales associates says, "I saw that woman who is

18 heading toward the exit right now pick up a

19 Dillard's watch with a price tag still on it,

20 while her partner was distracting the sales

21 associate who was waiting on her, and conceal

22 that watch under her arm, and she is heading to

23 the door now," you would not make an

24 apprehension?

25 A. I would do an investigative talk to them.



217



1 Q. If, in the course of that investigation, the

2 suspect said, "No, you can't talk to me, and no,

3 you can't look under my arm, I am leaving," and

4 started walking around you to head for the exit,

5 would you make an apprehension?

6 A. No.

7 Q. That is because it was only one item involved

8 and not six items?

9 A. Like I said, on the incident.

10 Q. If the sale associates reported to you and said,

11 "I just saw that woman who is heading for the

12 exit right now carrying Dillard's bag pick up a

13 pile of T-shirts and put them in the bag, and

14 she is leaving with them in her bag right now,"

15 would you make an apprehension on that basis?

16 A. I would make a stop.

17 Q. And if the person said, "No, you can't look in

18 my bag," when you made the stop, and attempted

19 to walk around you and head for the exit would

20 you make an apprehension?

21 A. I would detain that person.

22 Q. Because she had stolen six items instead of one,

23 six T-shirts instead of one watch?

24 A. Like I said, the quantity, and each situation is

25 unique.



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1 MR. BENSON: I have no further

2 questions.

3 MS. KOCH: No further questions.

4 (The deposition concluded at 3:00

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24 ______________________

Thomas J. Wilson

25 JLW



220



1 IN RE: Hampton vs. Dillard's

2

3 ____ I certify that I have read my testimony

4 and request that NO changes be made.

5

6 ____ I certify that I have read my testimony

7 and request that the above changes be

8 made.

9

10

11 ______________________

12 Thomas J. Wilson

13

14

15 Subscribed and sworn to before me

16 this ____ day of ____________, 19____

17

18

19 ______________________

20 Notary Public

21 State of _____________

22 County of ____________

23 My commission expires ____________

24

25 JLW



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1 C E R T I F I C A T E

2 I, Judy L. Whitehouse, a Notary Public of

3 the State of Kansas, do hereby certify:

4 That prior to being examined, the witness

5 was first duly sworn;

6 That said testimony was taken down by me in

7 shorthand at the time and place hereinbefore stated

8 and was thereafter reduced to typewriting under my

9 direction;

10 That the foregoing transcript is a true

11 record of the testimony given by said witness;

12 That I am not a relative or employee or

13 attorney or counsel of any of the parties or a

14 relative or employee of such attorney or counsel or

15 financially interested in the action.

16 Witness my hand and seal this 19th day of

17 September, 1997.

18

19

20

21

22

23 Judy L. Whitehouse

24 Notary Public, State of Kansas

25 My commission expires 8/24/00