Document provided by Benson & Associates
3 PAULA DARLENE HAMPTON and
DEMETRIA COOPER,
4
Plaintiffs,
5
vs. No. 97-2182-KHV
6
DILLARD'S DEPARTMENT
7 STORES, INC.,
8 Defendant.
9
10 DEPOSITION OF THOMAS J. WILSON, a witness,
taken on behalf of the Plaintiffs, pursuant to
11 Notice, on the 8th day of September, 1997, at the
law offices of Spencer, Fane, Britt & Browne, 9401
12 Indian Creek Parkway, Suite 500, Overland Park,
Kansas, before
13
JUDY L. WHITEHOUSE,
14
of AAA Reporting Company, a Notary Public of the
15 State of Kansas.
16 APPEARANCES
17 For the Plaintiffs:
MR. ARTHUR BENSON and
18 MS. KATHY D. FINNELL
ARTHUR BENSON & ASSOCIATES
19 1000 Walnut Street, Suite 1125
Kansas City, Missouri 64106-2123
20
21 For the Defendant:
MS. ELAINE DRODGE KOCH and
22 MS. KAREN KESSLER CAIN
SPENCER, FANE, BRITT & BROWNE
23 1000 Walnut Street, Suite 1400
Kansas City, Missouri 64106
24
25
2
1 STIPULATION
2 It was stipulated by and between counsel
3 that the presentment of this deposition to the
4 witness by the officer is expressly waived, and that
5 if said deposition is not signed by the witness by
6 the time of the commencement of the trial, it may be
7 used as though signed.
8
9 INDEX
10 WITNESS: Thomas J. Wilson PAGE:
11 Examination by Mr. Benson 3
Examination by Ms. Koch 212
12 Reexamination by Mr. Benson 213
13
14
EXHIBITS: MARKED:
15
1 - Security Rules & Regulations 45
16 2 - Security Officer objectives 2/97 45
3 - Incident report 45
17 4 - Shrinkage, we all pay 45
5 - Security officer objectives 2/27/96 205
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
3
1 (The deposition commenced at 9:03
2 a.m.)
3 THOMAS J. WILSON,
4 a witness, being first duly sworn, testified
5 under oath as follows:
6 EXAMINATION BY MR. BENSON:
7 Q. I have about 9:03. Please state your name.
8 A. Thomas J. Wilson.
9 Q. How are you employed?
10 A. I have two jobs. One is a sergeant with the
11 Kansas Highway Patrol, and the second one is
12 with Dillard's security.
13 Q. Where do you reside?
14 A. [Deleted]
15 Q. Are you married?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Do you have children?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Do you have any children?
20 A. No. Why?
21 Q. Just asking.
22 A. I was just curious.
23 Q. I just ask questions.
24 MS. KOCH: He will be asking a couple
25 of questions about your background.
4
1 THE WITNESS: I've never had that one
2 asked before.
3 MS. KOCH: Remember, everything is on
4 the record. He will be asking you questions and
5 you will be answering. The court reporter will
6 be taking everything down.
7 Q. (By Mr. Benson) Do you prefer to be called
8 Sergeant Wilson or Mr. Wilson?
9 A. I am off duty, Mr. Wilson would be fine.
10 Q. Mr. Wilson, have you retained counsel concerning
11 this case?
12 A. Dillard's has.
13 Q. Do you have a personal attorney?
14 A. I don't have a personal attorney.
15 Q. Do you consider yourself to be represented by
16 counsel at this deposition?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. All right. Prior to this deposition, did you
19 engage in any preparation for the deposition?
20 A. As to?
21 Q. Did you review any documents?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. What documents did you review?
24 A. My report that I made.
25 Q. Any other documents?
5
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. What documents?
3 A. I looked at officer Cleveland's report, and a
4 Pam Fitzgerel.
5 Q. Any other documents that you reviewed?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Did you review or read any depositions that have
8 been taken in this case?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Did you meet with or talk to by telephone with
11 any Dillard's employees concerning your
12 preparation for this deposition?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Have you discussed this litigation with any
15 Dillard's employees?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Who are they?
18 A. Marvie Dirks.
19 Q. When did you last discuss this litigation with
20 her?
21 A. I cannot recall.
22 Q. Within the last two weeks?
23 A. No, sir.
24 Q. Do you recall how many such discussions
25 concerning this litigation you have had with
6
1 Marvie Dirks?
2 A. Just when I was notified of this.
3 Q. What was the substance of that discussion?
4 A. That I would be having a phone call from Elaine.
5 Q. Any other substance in your discussions with
6 Marvie Dirks?
7 A. No, sir.
8 Q. Have you been deposed before?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. On approximately how many occasions?
11 A. I cannot recall.
12 Q. More than ten?
13 A. No.
14 Q. If at any time you don't understand any question
15 I ask, will you be sure to indicate it so I can
16 repeat it or rephrase it?
17 A. I will.
18 Q. Do you understand that at any time during the
19 deposition that you think of an answer to a
20 prior question or you think of something that
21 would require you to supplement or change your
22 answer that you should do that at any time it
23 occurs to you?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Even if I am in the middle of a question say,
7
1 "Excuse me, Mr. Benson, I just remembered
2 something on a question you asked me 20 minutes
3 ago," will you be sure and do that?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Even after the deposition if you think of
6 something that is material that you believe
7 requires you to change or supplement an answer,
8 would you please contact the attorneys for
9 Dillard's and advise them?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Have you ever been a party to a civil suit
12 either as a plaintiff or a defendant?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Have you ever been a witness in a civil suit?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Have testified as a witness in criminal cases?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. On many occasions?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Mr. Wilson, as of today, do you believe either
21 of the plaintiffs in this case, Paula Hampton or
22 Demetria Cooper, left the Dillard's store at
23 Oak Park Mall on April 5th, 1996, with property
24 of Dillard's they had not paid for?
25 A. Yes.
8
1 Q. Which one?
2 A. The young female.
3 Q. Demetria Cooper?
4 A. I did not have their names.
5 Q. There were two females involved in this
6 incident?
7 A. Yes, sir.
8 Q. One appeared younger than the other?
9 A. Yes, sir.
10 Q. You are saying it's your belief that the younger
11 of the two left with property of Dillard's not
12 paid for?
13 A. Yes, sir.
14 Q. Is it your belief that Demetria Cooper stole
15 property from Dillard's on that occasion?
16 A. Yes, sir.
17 Q. What property was it that was stolen?
18 A. It was one item that was dark in color.
19 Q. What was the item?
20 A. I have no idea.
21 Q. Was it an item of clothing?
22 A. Yes, sir.
23 Q. What else can you tell us about this item other
24 than it was clothing and dark in color?
25 A. That's it.
9
1 Q. What is the basis for your belief that the
2 younger of the females stole property from
3 Dillard's on April 5th, 1996?
4 A. Just talking to Pam Fitzgerel.
5 Q. On the date April 5th or in any conversations
6 subsequent to that?
7 A. I don't know the date of this.
8 Q. All right.
9 A. If you just tell me --
10 MS. KOCH: For the record, we can say
11 the date of the incident in question is April
12 5th, 1996.
13 A. Okay.
14 Q. (By Mr. Benson) Let me repeat my question. You
15 say that part of your basis for believing that
16 the young female stole property on April 5th,
17 1996, was a conversation with Pam Fitzgerel.
18 Is that a single conversation, or more than one
19 conversations?
20 A. Single.
21 Q. Was this a conversation that occurred on April
22 5th, 1996?
23 A. Yes, sir.
24 Q. Was that a conversation that occurred before you
25 approached Paula Hampton or Demetria Cooper, the
10
1 two females involved?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Any other basis for your belief that the younger
4 of the two females stole property of Dillard's
5 on April 5th, 1996, other than your conversation
6 with Pam Fitzgerel before you approached the two
7 women?
8 A. Of my observation, prior to Ms. Fitzgerel.
9 Q. Any other basis besides your conversation with
10 Fitzgerel and your observation?
11 A. No, sir.
12 Q. Mr. Wilson, I assume you graduated from high
13 school, is that correct?
14 A. Correct.
15 Q. Where did you attend high school?
16 A. Hutchinson.
17 Q. When did you graduate?
18 A. 1968.
19 Q. You attended college?
20 A. Junior college.
21 Q. Where?
22 A. Hutchinson Community College, and got an AA in
23 1974. And also got an AA from Colby Community
24 College with an AA in criminal justice.
25 Q. In what year?
11
1 A. I don't know.
2 Q. Any other college attendance?
3 A. No, sir.
4 Q. What was your first full-time employment after
5 high school?
6 A. I worked for my father.
7 Q. What business was he in?
8 A. Self-employed in sprinkler systems, wells,
9 pumps.
10 Q. How long did you work for your father?
11 A. After high school?
12 Q. Yes. Full time.
13 A. One year.
14 Q. What was your next --
15 A. Excuse me. Well, that was not full time. I was
16 going to college at the time.
17 Q. What was your first full-time job after high
18 school?
19 A. Uncle Sam, US Army.
20 Q. Do you recall what years you were in the Army?
21 A. 1969 to 1972.
22 Q. Were you drafted or enlisted?
23 A. Enlisted.
24 Q. What was your rank when you were discharged?
25 A. Sergeant.
12
1 Q. Was it an honorable discharge?
2 A. Yes, sir.
3 Q. Where did you serve?
4 A. Served at Fort Leavenworth and Inchon, Korea.
5 Q. What was your military occupational specialty?
6 A. I had two, one was a correctional confinement,
7 and the other one was military police.
8 Q. What was your next full-time employment after
9 the Army?
10 A. Kansas Highway Patrol.
11 Q. When were you first employed by the Highway
12 Patrol?
13 A. November 18th, 1974.
14 Q. Have you been continuously employed by the
15 Kansas Highway Patrol since 1974?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. How long have you been working part-time at
18 Dillard's?
19 A. A little over two years.
20 Q. Do you recall the month or the day and month
21 when you first began working at Dillard's?
22 A. No, sir.
23 Q. About how many hours per week do you work at
24 Dillard's?
25 A. I cannot speculate.
13
1 Q. What is your best estimate?
2 A. I can't, because they are some weeks I don't
3 even work.
4 Q. About how many hours per year do you work?
5 A. I don't know.
6 Q. Do you recall how much you earned at Dillard's
7 in 1996?
8 A. No, sir.
9 Q. What is the highest number of hours you work in
10 a week at Dillard's during the last two years?
11 A. 35 hours.
12 Q. Were you on vacation from the Highway Patrol at
13 that time?
14 A. I don't recall.
15 Q. What is a customary or a usual number of hours,
16 say, to the nearest five, 18 to 20 or something
17 like that?
18 A. I have had variance from two hours up to 35
19 hours.
20 Q. Who determines how many hours you work at
21 Dillard's?
22 A. My scheduling.
23 Q. Are you offered work, and if it didn't conflict
24 with your Highway Patrol duties then you accept
25 the assignment?
14
1 A. Yes, sir.
2 Q. During the last two years, have you been working
3 a particular shift for the highway patrol?
4 A. No, sir.
5 Q. Your shift rotates?
6 A. Yes, sir.
7 Q. How often does it rotate?
8 A. Every six days.
9 Q. Would you describe your shift rotation with the
10 Highway Patrol, how does it -- what are the
11 shifts that you rotate through?
12 A. We work a day shift, then we go on days off, and
13 then we work an evening shift, and then days
14 off, and then we go back to a day shift.
15 Q. When you work a day shift, what are the hours of
16 the day shift?
17 A. I don't have a set hour. I can come out
18 anywhere from 6:00 to 8:00 in the morning.
19 Q. Who determines that?
20 A. I do.
21 Q. Is the day shift an eight-hour day?
22 A. Eight and a half hours.
23 Q. How many days do you work on the day shift
24 before you get days off?
25 A. As I stated earlier, six.
15
1 Q. Six?
2 A. Yes, sir.
3 Q. Six days on the day shift?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. How many days off?
6 A. Two days.
7 Q. Then six days on the night shift?
8 A. Yes, sir.
9 Q. Do you determine when you begin the night shift?
10 A. I have flexibility on my hours.
11 Q. Within what range?
12 A. Anywhere from 12:00 to 9:00.
13 Q. 12:00 noon?
14 A. Yes, sir, until 9:00 p.m.
15 Q. And the night shift is also an eight and a half
16 hour shift?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And two more days off?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And then back to day shift?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Have you been assigned to continuing training or
23 on an annual or semi-annual basis for the
24 Highway Patrol?
25 A. Yes.
16
1 Q. What is the Highway Patrol's requirements for
2 ongoing training?
3 A. We have -- patrol puts on their own in-service
4 training.
5 Q. How often do you participate in the patrol's
6 in-service training?
7 A. Once a year.
8 Q. What does it consist of in terms of length, is
9 it a one-day, two-day?
10 A. No, it's during the week. I don't know if it's
11 32 hours or 36 hours.
12 Q. Is that required that you participate in it once
13 a year?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. When did you most recently participate in the
16 Kansas Highway Patrol in-service training?
17 A. December, January.
18 Q. What topics did it cover?
19 A. Various topics.
20 Q. Such as?
21 A. You would have to check the training records.
22 Q. I would like your best recall of it.
23 A. I don't remember.
24 Q. Can you remember any single topic from your last
25 Kansas Highway Patrol in-service?
17
1 A. The last one?
2 Q. Yes.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. What can you remember?
5 A. Physical agility testing.
6 Q. How long did that last?
7 A. I was fast runner, so it didn't take long.
8 Q. Did the physical agility test consist of
9 anything other than running?
10 A. Strength test.
11 Q. Anything else?
12 A. No.
13 Q. How long did the running and strength tests
14 take, under an hour?
15 A. Under an hour.
16 Q. Can you remember any other topics from your most
17 recent Kansas Highway Patrol in-service?
18 A. Employee evaluation.
19 Q. How long did the presentation of the employee
20 evaluation topic last?
21 A. I don't know.
22 Q. Under two hours?
23 A. I don't know.
24 Q. Less than a whole day?
25 A. I don't know.
18
1 Q. You don't remember?
2 A. That's correct.
3 Q. What other topics were covered in the Kansas
4 Highway Patrol in-service you last attended?
5 A. I can't remember.
6 Q. You don't recall any others?
7 A. I can't remember what was that week.
8 Q. Is it spread over four days or five days?
9 A. I can't remember if it's four or five.
10 Q. Where was it held?
11 A. At our training academy in Salina, Kansas.
12 Q. Does the Kansas Highway Patrol offer any other
13 formal training in addition to its annual
14 in-service?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. What are those training opportunities?
17 A. There are various ones, standardized field
18 sobriety testing, commercial vehicle Level 2
19 inspections, kinesic training.
20 Q. What is that, kinesic training?
21 A. Yes, sir.
22 Q. That has to do with weight and momentum?
23 A. I have no idea. I just look at the rosters that
24 come out that offer additional training if you
25 would like to attend.
19
1 Q. Any others that you can think of?
2 A. Drug recognition evaluation, radar instructor.
3 Q. Any others you can think of?
4 A. No, I can't.
5 Q. Have you participated in any of these training
6 options that you have described, say, in the
7 last five years?
8 A. I cannot remember for five years.
9 Q. However far back you can remember, when do you
10 last recall?
11 Let me ask it this way: Are these
12 voluntary training opportunities?
13 A. Yes, sir.
14 Q. Do you get paid for attending them if you elect
15 to?
16 A. We are paid monthly.
17 Q. Do you get paid extra for attending these
18 voluntarily?
19 A. No, sir.
20 Q. If you attend these voluntary training sessions
21 does it benefit you at all in terms of your pay?
22 A. No, sir.
23 Q. When is the last time you can recall having
24 attended one of these voluntary training
25 sessions?
20
1 A. I can't recall.
2 Q. More than two years ago?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. More than five years ago?
5 A. I can't recall.
6 Q. Do you recall what the topic was of the last
7 voluntary Kansas Highway Patrol training session
8 you attended?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Can you recall the topics of any of the Kansas
11 Highway Patrol voluntary training sessions you
12 have ever attended?
13 A. Motorcycle gangs.
14 Q. Do you recall any others?
15 A. Drug recognition examiner, motorcycle school.
16 That's all I can recall.
17 Q. Do you recall approximately how long ago it was
18 that you attended had any of those three
19 voluntary training sessions?
20 A. No.
21 Q. When you enlisted in the Army, after you
22 finished basic training, did you participate in
23 training for your correctional confinement and
24 military police duties?
25 A. Yes.
21
1 Q. Where did that training take place?
2 A. Fort Gordon, Georgia.
3 Q. How long did that last?
4 A. I don't recall.
5 Q. Did you do them both at the same time?
6 A. I went to three schools.
7 Q. One after another?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. When you finished them, you ended up with your
10 two MOSs?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. How long did each of those three schools last?
13 A. I can't recall.
14 Q. Do you recall what the names of the three
15 schools were?
16 A. First one was a leadership school, then the
17 second one was military police, and the third
18 one was correctional.
19 Q. Were they all at Fort Gordon?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. As best you can recall, what did the leadership
22 school consist of?
23 A. To be a platoon leader.
24 Q. What did the training consist of to help you
25 become a platoon leader?
22
1 A. Discipline.
2 Q. What else?
3 A. That was what leadership school was for.
4 Q. What did the military police school consist of?
5 A. Various police activities, and all the military
6 does.
7 Q. Such as?
8 A. Instead of being a police officer in civilian
9 life, you are a police officer in the military.
10 Q. What can you recall that the military police
11 school training consisted of at Fort Gordon,
12 what did you do during your enrollment in that
13 school?
14 A. I can't recall the curriculum.
15 Q. Are these like a two- or three-week school?
16 A. No. They were longer than two or three weeks.
17 Q. How long were they?
18 A. They were longer than that.
19 Q. Was the leadership school longer than a month?
20 A. No.
21 Q. How long was the leadership school?
22 A. I think it was two weeks.
23 Q. How long was the military police school?
24 A. I can't recall.
25 Q. Four or six weeks, in that range?
23
1 A. I can't recall.
2 Q. Was it longer than two months?
3 A. I don't know.
4 Q. How long was the correctional school?
5 A. I don't remember.
6 Q. Longer than two weeks?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Longer than a month?
9 A. I don't know.
10 Q. What did the correctional school consist of,
11 what did you do when you were in that school?
12 A. On dealing with prisoners.
13 Q. Anything else other than dealing with prisoners?
14 A. That was what correctional field was.
15 Q. After you finished your three school at Fort
16 Gordon, did you serve in the Army as both a
17 correctional confinement officer and a military
18 police officer?
19 A. Yes, sir.
20 Q. In which capacity did you serve longer?
21 A. Correctional field.
22 Q. Correctional what?
23 A. Field.
24 Q. In the correctional field?
25 A. Yes.
24
1 Q. Where were you stationed when you were in the
2 correctional field?
3 A. At Fort Leavenworth.
4 Q. At the military barracks?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. How long were you there?
7 A. I am thinking around two years.
8 Q. While you were stationed at Fort Leavenworth did
9 your duties include anything other than dealing
10 with prisoners?
11 A. No. Oh, yes, military police.
12 Q. You did some MP work at Fort Leavenworth?
13 A. Yes, sir.
14 Q. What did that consist of?
15 A. I was a sergeant road patrol.
16 Q. In the Fort Leavenworth area?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. On the base?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. What were your duties as a sergeant road patrol?
21 A. Being in charge of people that were out on the
22 road.
23 Q. Were you yourself out on the road as well?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. How many people were you in charge of?
25
1 A. I cannot recall.
2 Q. Under ten?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Did you do that while you were also a
5 correctional confinement officer, or you went
6 from one to the other?
7 A. Went from one to the other.
8 Q. How long were you in your MP duties at Fort
9 Leavenworth?
10 A. I can't recall.
11 Q. You were at Fort Leavenworth for a total of
12 about two years?
13 A. Yes, sir.
14 Q. Were you in the correctional occupational
15 specialty for most of that time?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. After you left Fort Leavenworth, is that when
18 you were transferred to Inchon, Korea?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. How long were you in Korea?
21 A. I think four, four and a half months.
22 Q. Were you an MP exclusively while you were there?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. What were your duties as an MP in Korea?
25 A. I was a sergeant, road sergeant.
26
1 Q. On the base at Inchon?
2 A. Yes, on the military installation.
3 Q. Did you have any duties as an MP at the military
4 installation in Korea other than the road
5 sergeant on the base?
6 A. No.
7 Q. When you joined the Highway Patrol in Kansas,
8 where were you first assigned?
9 A. Goodland, Kansas.
10 Q. How long were you in Goodland?
11 A. Almost five years.
12 Q. Then where?
13 A. Topeka.
14 Q. How long in Topeka?
15 A. Five years.
16 Q. Then where?
17 A. Wichita.
18 Q. How long in Wichita?
19 A. Nine years.
20 Q. Then where?
21 A. Kansas City.
22 Q. And you have been here ever since?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. When did you become a sergeant in the Highway
25 Patrol?
27
1 A. 1988.
2 Q. From 1974 to 1988, what was your rank, was that
3 patrol officer?
4 A. I was a trooper.
5 Q. What were your duties -- you were a trooper in
6 all three, Goodland, Topeka, and Wichita, is
7 that right?
8 A. And then I got promoted while I was in Wichita.
9 Q. What were your duties as a trooper in Goodland
10 and Topeka?
11 A. In Goodland I was a road trooper. I transferred
12 to Topeka with aircraft, flying, and then I
13 transferred back to the road.
14 Q. Do you have a pilot's license?
15 A. I was working on it at the time.
16 Q. Did you get a pilot's license?
17 A. No, too many plane crashes and that made me
18 decide not to fly anymore.
19 Q. You were in two plane crashes?
20 A. No. There were a lot of plane crashes.
21 Q. There were plane crashes?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. All right. As a road trooper you were assigned
24 a vehicle, I take it?
25 A. Yes.
28
1 Q. In the Kansas Highway Patrol, do road troopers
2 have partners?
3 A. No.
4 Q. You had a vehicle yourself and you had road
5 patrol duties, is that right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. You enforce the laws of Kansas on the highways
8 of Kansas, is that a general description of your
9 duties?
10 A. We enforce the laws of the State of Kansas.
11 Q. Most of your work was on the highways, on the
12 state and federal highways of Kansas?
13 A. The majority of it is.
14 Q. What kinds of laws were you most involved in
15 enforcing?
16 A. I worked in a wide range. I never really
17 concentrated just on one.
18 Q. Did you have some discretion in what you did as
19 a road trooper?
20 A. Yes, sir.
21 Q. Among your responsibilities would be enforcing
22 the traffic laws, I take it?
23 A. Yes, sir.
24 Q. That was some part of your time?
25 A. Yes.
29
1 Q. I guess that was always a part of your time,
2 correct?
3 A. That's correct.
4 Q. Part of your responsibilities would be assisting
5 persons in distress?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Victims of accidents and so forth?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Vehicular malfunctions and so forth?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. What other duties did you have or take upon
12 yourself? We talked about enforcing the traffic
13 laws and assisting persons in distress, what
14 other kinds of activities do you customarily
15 perform?
16 A. Criminal.
17 Q. Criminal investigations?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. What kinds of criminal acts would it frequently
20 be, drug transportation, would that be one?
21 A. Drugs.
22 Q. What other kinds of criminal activities would
23 you customarily find yourself involved in?
24 A. Thefts.
25 Q. Thefts from?
30
1 A. Deprivation of gasoline or services along the
2 interstate, or stolen transportation.
3 Q. Stolen vehicles, cars, trucks?
4 A. Transportation, yes.
5 Q. What else?
6 A. That is it.
7 Q. In the course of these activities you would
8 locate and interview witnesses, I take it?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Write reports?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Make arrests?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Testify in court?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. How long were you in aircraft training?
17 A. I started on my pilot's license when I was out
18 in Goodland and then continued it when I went to
19 Topeka.
20 Q. Did you work on your aircraft pilot's license on
21 your own, or was it part of your Highway Patrol
22 duties?
23 A. On my own.
24 Q. Did you have any aircraft duties when you were
25 in Topeka?
31
1 A. I was assigned the aircraft crew.
2 Q. You flew in aircraft with others?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. How long did do you that?
5 A. I think a couple of months, probably.
6 Q. Did that include spotting speeders on the
7 highway?
8 A. Yes, sir.
9 Q. Assisting and following suspicious vehicles from
10 the air?
11 A. Yes, sir.
12 Q. What else were your aircraft duties?
13 A. That was it.
14 Q. Those two?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Were you a spotter when you were in the plane?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Then you went to Wichita as a trooper and were
19 promoted to sergeant, is that right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. How would you describe the change in duties
22 between the duties of a trooper as compared to
23 the duties of a sergeant?
24 A. Sergeant is first line supervision.
25 Q. In Wichita how many troopers did you supervise?
32
1 A. None.
2 Q. Did you have any first line supervision
3 responsibilities in Wichita?
4 A. No.
5 Q. When you were promoted as a sergeant you
6 transferred to Kansas City?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Explain what your duties were as a sergeant in
9 Wichita.
10 A. I was assigned to the breath alcohol unit for
11 eight years.
12 Q. Did you have first line supervision
13 responsibility in the breath alcohol unit?
14 A. For a very short time.
15 Q. What did that consist of, for that very short
16 time?
17 A. Three troopers.
18 Q. What were their responsibilities?
19 A. Same as my teaching assignments, also. That was
20 it.
21 Q. Teaching what?
22 A. We taught throughout the state for standardized
23 field sobriety, also drug recognition. And then
24 also Intoxilyzer 5000, which is a breath
25 instrument.
33
1 Q. How long did this last?
2 A. About eight years.
3 Q. For eight years you travelled around the state
4 teaching these three topics, is that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Teaching other Highway Patrol employees and
7 local law enforcement?
8 A. And judges, and defense attorneys and
9 prosecution attorneys.
10 Q. During a period of this time you supervised
11 three other troopers?
12 A. As I stated earlier, a very short time.
13 Q. How did that change? What brought about that
14 change?
15 A. A lieutenant that I had. He wanted to run
16 everything.
17 Q. So he assigned those three troopers to himself?
18 A. No, we were all in the unit together, and that
19 he did all the evaluations.
20 Q. You had no evaluative or supervisory
21 responsibilities?
22 A. Right. The reason is we were spread throughout
23 the state.
24 Q. At the end of that eight years, is that when you
25 moved to Kansas City?
34
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And you were a sergeant here in Kansas City?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Do you supervise other troopers here?
5 A. Yes, I do.
6 Q. How many?
7 A. 12.
8 Q. Are they all road troopers?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Do you have road responsibilities yourself?
11 A. Not per se.
12 Q. What does a typical day on duty for you consist
13 of in your sergeant capacity?
14 A. It varies.
15 Q. What are some of the things you may be doing as
16 a sergeant?
17 A. It would be road duty, just like my 12 troopers
18 do. And in addition, check their paperwork, and
19 do the evaluations.
20 Q. Do each of your troopers get evaluated once a
21 year or twice?
22 A. When they come off probation, yes.
23 Q. While they are on probation how often are they
24 evaluated?
25 A. They are evaluated daily by a field training
35
1 officer, and then I reviewed it.
2 Q. Do you have any troopers under your supervision
3 now who are on probation?
4 A. No.
5 Q. When did you last have a trooper on probation
6 under your supervision?
7 A. I believe May.
8 Q. What do your job duties as sergeant in the
9 Kansas City area consist of other than road
10 duty, checking the paperwork of other troopers,
11 and evaluating other troopers?
12 A. First line supervisor.
13 Q. What does that consist of, what do you do as a
14 first line supervisor?
15 A. If something occurs I will be contacted, if I am
16 the sergeant that is on duty.
17 Q. How big is the Kansas City area that you are
18 assigned to, what is your geographic
19 responsibility?
20 A. Troop A consists of four counties, Leavenworth,
21 Wyandotte, Johnson and Miami County. And I have
22 troopers assigned in all four counties.
23 Q. How many sergeant are there in Troop A?
24 A. We have four sergeants.
25 Q. At least one is always on duty?
36
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Generally 12 troopers are on duty at any given
3 time?
4 A. No.
5 Q. How many?
6 A. It varies.
7 Q. From?
8 A. From training, state fair, sick, family leave.
9 Q. A maximum of 12 on duty at any one time?
10 A. If I am lucky.
11 Q. When you said your first line supervisory duty
12 would be called upon if something occurs in the
13 area, that would be a major event requiring the
14 assistance of the Highway Patrol?
15 A. Yes, I would be contacted. If my lieutenant was
16 not on duty, then I would be contacted.
17 Q. You would supervise the work of how many ever of
18 your troopers were assigned to this major
19 incident as well?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. How often does something like that occur?
22 A. Not very often.
23 Q. Couple times a year?
24 A. I need a clarification of something really
25 major.
37
1 Q. Sure. I am talking about when -- you said when
2 something occurs that requires your first line
3 supervisory activity, how often does that
4 something occur?
5 A. It varies. We can have requests from other
6 agencies to help set up perimeters if they are
7 looking for a suspect, and I have to assign
8 people into the area.
9 If we have a real major accident, we
10 will assist other agencies and they will go
11 through me to assign one of my officers if it's
12 not on a state or federal highway.
13 Q. If it's on a state or federal highway your
14 troopers would be in charge of providing
15 security?
16 A. Yes, sir.
17 Q. When you are on duty, do you normally work out
18 of an office?
19 A. I have an office, but my car is my office.
20 Q. When you are on duty you are mostly in your car?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. When you were first employed by the Kansas
23 Highway Patrol, did you participate in training?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. How long was the training?
38
1 A. I am thinking it was 16 weeks.
2 Q. Does the Kansas Highway Patrol have a trooper
3 school?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Where is that located?
6 A. Salina, Kansas.
7 Q. What is the name of this school? I call it
8 trooper school, but I don't know what it is.
9 A. Kansas Highway Patrol Training Academy.
10 Q. After the training academy, how long were you on
11 probation?
12 A. The day I was hired I was on one-year probation.
13 Q. So you went off probation after one year from
14 your date of hire?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. That's customary?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. As best as you can recall, what did the training
19 academy consist of, what topics?
20 A. It was 23 years ago, and I cannot recall all of
21 topics. It dealt with police -- what I am doing
22 now.
23 Q. What you are doing now as a Highway Patrol
24 officer?
25 A. Yes, sir.
39
1 Q. Before you began working part-time for
2 Dillard's, did you work part-time for any other
3 employer?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Dillard's is your first part-time employment?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. What is your rate of pay? Are you paid by the
8 hour?
9 A. $15 an hour.
10 Q. Who hired you at Dillard's?
11 A. Marvie Dirks.
12 Q. How did you learn about the job opportunity at
13 Dillard's?
14 A. From a security employee.
15 Q. Who was that?
16 A. Al Sanchez.
17 Q. He is a Highway Patrol trooper?
18 A. Yes, he is. He is a master trooper.
19 Q. He is a what?
20 A. Master Trooper.
21 Q. What does that mean?
22 A. We have ranks. We have Trooper 1, 2, and then
23 we have a master trooper, and then a sergeant.
24 Q. Do you know about how long he has been with the
25 Highway Patrol?
40
1 A. Since 1981.
2 Q. Is he still working at Dillard's as a security
3 officer?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. He told you that there was an opening at
6 Dillard's?
7 A. Correct.
8 Q. And you contacted Marvie Dirks?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. What did the application process consist of,
11 interview?
12 A. Yes, sir.
13 Q. Anything else?
14 A. No.
15 Q. How long did the interview last?
16 A. I think I was there that day for a total of
17 three hours.
18 Q. Did you start with an interview with Marvie
19 Dirks?
20 A. Yes, sir.
21 Q. How long did that last?
22 A. I do not recall.
23 Q. What did you do after the interview with Marvie
24 Dirks?
25 A. I met a security officer, and we visited for a
41
1 while, and he was showing me around.
2 Q. Did Marvie Dirks hire you at the end of the
3 interview?
4 A. Yes, sir.
5 Q. Offered you the job and you accepted?
6 A. Yes, sir.
7 Q. Did she introduce you to the security officer?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Do you know who that was?
10 A. Darrell Haynes.
11 Q. How do you spell Haynes?
12 A. H-a-y-n-e-s.
13 Q. Is he still a security officer at Dillard's?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Does he hold any other law enforcement
16 responsibilities, job?
17 A. He works for a school district.
18 Q. When you met Darrell Haynes, what did he do?
19 You say he showed you around?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. What did that consist of?
22 A. Showing me where their security cameras were
23 located, high theft areas, exit doors,
24 management executive offices.
25 Q. This was a walking tour?
42
1 A. Yes, sir.
2 Q. After the walking tour, what did you do next?
3 A. I departed Dillard's.
4 Q. Do you recall what month it was that you started
5 at Dillard's?
6 A. No.
7 Q. It was about two years ago?
8 A. I would say over two years.
9 Q. Was it in the summertime?
10 A. I believe it was.
11 Q. Would you believe it would have been the summer
12 of 1995?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. On this day that you were interviewed by Marvie
15 Dirks, offered the job, and Darrell Haynes gave
16 you this walking tour, were you given any
17 documents?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. What documents?
20 A. Marvie Dirks handed me documents outlining
21 responsibilities, high theft areas.
22 Q. Anything else?
23 A. I can't recall besides that.
24 Q. Then when did you next report to Dillard's?
25 A. I can't recall.
43
1 Q. Within a few days?
2 A. I can't recall.
3 Q. Within a week?
4 A. I don't know.
5 Q. Would it have been as long and a month?
6 A. I don't know.
7 Q. Do you think it may have been as long as a month
8 before you showed up to begin working?
9 A. I don't know.
10 Q. What did you do the next time you came to
11 Dillard's?
12 A. Worked with another officer.
13 Q. Do you know who that was?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Do you recall approximately how long that
16 occasion lasted, how many hours?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Was it more than one hour?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Less than ten hours?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. More than three hours?
23 A. I don't know.
24 Q. During however long you were with this other
25 officer on this next occasion, were you with
44
1 that officer virtually the whole time?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Did that continue for other times after you --
4 A. (Witness nods head.)
5 Q. Is your answer yes?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. How many additional times did you work with
8 another officer when you reported to work at
9 Dillard's?
10 A. I can't recall.
11 Q. Was it more than one or two more times?
12 A. I don't know.
13 Q. Could it have been as many as four or five more
14 times?
15 A. I don't know.
16 Q. What other training was provided to you by
17 Dillard's for your security position?
18 A. Just on-the-job training.
19 Q. From Darrell Haynes and other security officers?
20 A. Yes, sir.
21 Q. Was your title at Dillard's security officer?
22 A. Yes, sir.
23 Q. Is it still security officer?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Since you began working at Dillard's have you
45
1 received any formal training in security work
2 from Dillard's other than the on-the-job
3 training you referred to?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Do you recall approximately when it was that you
6 first worked a shift at Dillard's on your own?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Do you know if it was within a week of first
9 beginning your work at Dillard's?
10 A. I have no idea.
11 Q. From approximately how many Dillard's security
12 officers did you receive on-the-job training?
13 A. I have no idea.
14 Q. More than one?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. As many as three?
17 (Discussion off the record.)
18 (Recess.)
19 (Wilson Deposition Exhibits Nos. 1
20 through 4 were marked for identification.)
21 (The preceding three questions and
22 answers were read by the reporter.)
23 Q. (By Mr. Benson) Do you recall the questions
24 now?
25 A. Yes, I do.
46
1 Q. Did you receive on-the-job training from as many
2 as three Dillard's security officers?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. More than three?
5 A. It could be.
6 Q. More than five?
7 A. It could be.
8 Q. Who were the security officers you recall
9 receiving training from beside Darrell Haynes?
10 A. I cannot recall specifically.
11 Q. You can't recall any names other than Darrell
12 Haynes, is that correct?
13 A. No, correct. Because I was new at the time.
14 Q. Are any of the security officers at Dillard's
15 from whom you received on-the-job training still
16 employed as security officers at Dillard's?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. How many?
19 A. Boy, I cannot recall how many.
20 Q. Which ones that you can recall are still
21 employed at Dillard's?
22 A. Barry Martens.
23 Q. Any others?
24 A. No, I cannot recall their names.
25 Q. Did you receive on the job training from Barry
47
1 Martens?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. What did that consist of?
4 A. As with Mr. Haynes.
5 Q. Walking around and doing your duties together?
6 A. Yes, sir.
7 Q. On how many occasions did you spend a shift with
8 Barry Martens?
9 A. I cannot recall how long it was.
10 Q. More than one?
11 A. I cannot recall.
12 MS. KOCH: Mr. Wilson was telling me
13 when we stepped outside that there was something
14 else he thought was responsive to one of your
15 questions on training that he had not said, and
16 I told him if you didn't ask the question
17 specifically on it to go ahead --
18 A. I went in on my own time without getting paid to
19 be around the other officers.
20 Q. (By Mr. Benson) On how many occasions?
21 A. I cannot recall.
22 Q. More than once?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. More than three times?
25 A. I can't recall.
48
1 Q. What other officers did you spend your own time
2 being around?
3 A. I can't recall their names.
4 Q. Did you do this in the first few weeks of your
5 employment at Dillard's?
6 A. Probably.
7 Q. When you were hired at Dillard's did someone
8 explain your duties to you?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Who was that?
11 A. Marvie Dirks.
12 Q. What did she tell you your duties were?
13 A. As I stated earlier, on the interview session,
14 that is when she provided the documents that I
15 stated earlier.
16 Q. And was her explanation of your duties the
17 providing of documents, or did she verbally
18 explain to you what your duties were?
19 A. She did both.
20 Q. What did she say, what did she verbally explain
21 your duties as consisting of?
22 A. She went over the policy and procedure that she
23 had in front of her, she read it out loud, line
24 by line, while I read along.
25 Q. I am going to show you what's been marked as
49
1 Wilson Deposition Exhibit 1. Is that a copy of
2 the document you are referring to?
3 A. I don't know. I can't recall if this was the
4 one.
5 Q. Have you seen what is Deposition Exhibit 1
6 before?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. What is your understanding as to what that
9 document is?
10 A. It's the rules and procedures for security
11 personnel.
12 Q. When did you first see that document?
13 A. The day that I was interviewed.
14 Q. I show you what has been marked Wilson
15 Deposition Exhibit 2, do you recognize that
16 document?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. What is it?
19 A. It's objectives for security officers at
20 Dillard's Oak Park.
21 Q. When did you first see that document?
22 A. I don't know if I have seen -- I have seen one
23 like this. I don't know when, where, what time,
24 date.
25 Q. Did you see a document like that when you were
50
1 first hired?
2 A. Yes, and I would have to say that on the first
3 one you handed me also on Document No. 1. I
4 have seen something similar to that, and I don't
5 know exactly which one it was on the date of my
6 interview.
7 Q. Are there more than one Dillard's documents
8 entitled rules and procedures for security
9 personnel?
10 A. I have no idea.
11 Q. Have you ever seen more than one? Have you ever
12 seen two documents entitled rules and procedures
13 for security personnel?
14 A. I see that on my review.
15 Q. On your annual review?
16 A. Yes, sir.
17 Q. It says rules and procedure for security
18 personnel?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Or one is attached? When you say you see that
21 on my evaluation, what do you mean, what do you
22 see?
23 A. Personnel evaluation like I had in my interview
24 session with Marvie Dirks.
25 Q. When you have such a personnel evaluation, what
51
1 do you see?
2 A. Documents to that nature.
3 Q. Entitled rules and procedures for security
4 personnel?
5 A. Yes, sir.
6 Q. Do you know whether or not Dillard's has more
7 than one rules and procedures for security
8 personnel?
9 A. I do not know.
10 Q. Do you know whether Dillard's has more than one
11 objectives for security officers at Dillard's
12 Oak Park?
13 A. I have no idea.
14 Q. What other documents did Marvie Dirks give you
15 during the interview?
16 A. I can't recall.
17 Q. Any other documents that explained your duties
18 or your responsibilities?
19 A. I can't recall all the documentation.
20 Q. What is your understanding as to what your
21 duties and responsibilities consist of?
22 A. To provide security.
23 Q. Is that it?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. What is your understanding of what providing
52
1 security consists of?
2 A. It can be from assisting the person who has
3 fallen down the steps, lost child, assisting
4 someone to find their vehicle in the parking
5 lot that is lost, to assist in emergency
6 situations, watch people, apprehend shoplifters.
7 Q. What else do you understand your duty of
8 providing security to consist of?
9 A. I believe I explained it.
10 Q. You think that's it, you can't think of any more
11 at this time?
12 A. No, I can't recall.
13 Q. Have those always been your duties as a security
14 officer at Dillard's?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Have your responsibilities as a security officer
17 at Dillard's changed over the time that you were
18 first hired?
19 A. No.
20 Q. How often is your performance evaluated at
21 Dillard's?
22 A. I believe it's every six months.
23 Q. Who evaluates you?
24 A. Marvie Dirks.
25 Q. Is she your immediate supervisor at Dillard's?
53
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Are there any benefits that flow to you as a
3 result of a favorable evaluation at Dillard's?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Other than continued employment, I guess?
6 A. No.
7 Q. As a result of favorable evaluations are you
8 considered for pay increases?
9 A. I have no idea.
10 Q. Have you received a pay increase since you have
11 been at Dillard's?
12 A. No.
13 Q. As a result of favorable evaluations, are you
14 called more often for scheduling assignments?
15 A. No.
16 Q. As a result of favorable evaluations, are you
17 given more favorable scheduling assignment
18 options?
19 A. I have no idea.
20 Q. Do you know whether Dillard's has any way of
21 measuring your production or your job
22 fulfillment at Dillard's?
23 A. I have no idea.
24 Q. Do you know whether Dillard's keeps track of
25 things like the number of apprehensions by a
54
1 security officer?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Do you know, are you given that data on a
4 regular basis about how many apprehensions you
5 have made?
6 A. Never.
7 Q. Do you know whether or not Dillard's keeps track
8 of merchandise recovered by each security
9 officer?
10 A. I have no idea.
11 Q. Are you ever --
12 A. Oh, I will explain that. It's in our report,
13 any items that we recover is in a written
14 report.
15 Q. You do a written report for every incident in
16 which you are involved, is that correct?
17 MS. KOCH: Object to the form of
18 question to the extent incident is vague.
19 MR. BENSON: I will withdraw that
20 question for now.
21 Q. (By Mr. Benson) Whenever you write an incident
22 report, if it involved recovering merchandise,
23 you would put that in the report, is that
24 correct?
25 A. Yes.
55
1 Q. Do you know whether or not Dillard's compiles
2 merchandise recovery data from those incident
3 reports?
4 A. I don't know.
5 Q. Do you know whether Dillard's in any way keeps
6 track of the merchandise, the amount or the
7 value of the merchandise that is recovered by
8 its security officers?
9 A. Just from our reports, that is as far as I know.
10 Q. You don't know what is done with the data in
11 your reports?
12 A. No, sir.
13 Q. What is your understanding as to how your job
14 performance is measured at Dillard's?
15 A. By my twice a year evaluation.
16 Q. What does that consist of, what is Dillard's
17 looking for in order to give you a favorable
18 evaluation?
19 A. For an evaluation, I don't know on favorable,
20 but my evaluation consists of if I answer my
21 calls, if I show up for work, and I'm not just
22 standing around.
23 Q. By show up for work, you mean for an assigned
24 schedule?
25 A. Yes, sir.
56
1 Q. If you accept an assignment, agree to be there,
2 you are evaluated on whether or not you show up?
3 A. Yes, sir.
4 Q. And by answer calls, do you mean when you are
5 called or paged?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. While you are on duty at Dillard's?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Are those usually radio calls?
10 A. It can be -- no, intercom.
11 Q. Do you wear a radio while you are on duty?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. What form of calls do you receive, both radio
14 and intercom?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. So you are evaluated on whether or not you
17 respond to the calls that are placed to you?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Thirdly, you said whether or not you are not
20 just standing around. What does that mean?
21 A. That I'm not standing just talking to
22 associates. I am on the floor letting the
23 associates know that there is a security person
24 on the floor, and I am always on the move.
25 Q. Who would make the observation about whether or
57
1 not you are always on the move as opposed to
2 just standing around?
3 A. Any associate or assistant sales manager, Marvie
4 Dirks, Mr. Rodgers.
5 Q. For your evaluation, who makes those
6 observations?
7 A. I have no idea.
8 Q. What else does your evaluation consist of
9 besides whether you show up, whether you answer
10 calls, and whether you are not just standing
11 around?
12 A. I have no idea.
13 Q. On this day in which the event that gave rise to
14 this lawsuit occurred, which I think we have
15 agreed was April 5th, 1996, do you recall the
16 incident that we are concerned about?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. On that day, do you recall approximately what
19 time you reported for duty at Dillard's?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Do you recall approximately how long you had
22 been on duty before you first observed the two
23 women who were later identified as Hampton and
24 Cooper?
25 A. No.
58
1 Q. Do you recall where you were when you first saw
2 them?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Where were you?
5 A. I was on the second level of the south Dillard's
6 store passing through the infants section on the
7 walkway.
8 Q. Where were you headed?
9 A. I was just walking the floor.
10 Q. What attracted your attention?
11 A. A baby stroller.
12 Q. Was there a baby in the baby stroller?
13 A. I don't recall.
14 Q. What about the baby stroller attracted your
15 attention?
16 A. I just watch people in the store when they have
17 baby strollers.
18 Q. Is the baby stroller suspicious, in your view?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Why is that?
21 A. People have been apprehended from concealing
22 items in baby strollers inside Dillard's.
23 MR. BENSON: Karen Cain just arrived.
24 Good morning, Karen.
25 Q. (By Mr. Benson) Have you ever apprehended
59
1 anyone at Dillard's who was concealing items of
2 Dillard's merchandise in a baby stroller?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Do you consider all people with baby strollers
5 to be potential shoplifters?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. When you noticed the baby stroller, what did you
8 do?
9 A. I stopped in the boys section and started
10 watching.
11 Q. How many people were you watching?
12 A. I was watching a young black female and an older
13 black female with small children.
14 Q. How many small children?
15 A. I think I put in my report two small children,
16 but I cannot give you the exact.
17 Q. Approximately how old were the two small
18 children?
19 A. I don't know.
20 Q. Give me your best estimate as to the range of
21 age for the younger of the two?
22 A. Not having kids, I don't know.
23 Q. How about the older of the two, approximately
24 what age range?
25 A. I don't know.
60
1 Q. Were either of the children so young as to not
2 be able to walk?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Both of the children could walk?
5 A. I don't recall.
6 Q. Did the youngest child require assistance
7 walking because of it's young age?
8 A. I can't recall.
9 Q. Do you recall what the weather was like on this
10 day?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Do you recall whether other shoppers were
13 wearing coats or jackets because of the weather?
14 A. No, I can't recall.
15 Q. Was anyone else in the infants section besides
16 the two women and the two children that you
17 observed?
18 A. I don't recall, because I was just watching
19 them.
20 Q. Was there a sales associate?
21 A. There were associates around, but not where I
22 was watching the two ladies.
23 Q. Were there sales associates in the infants
24 section?
25 A. I can't recall.
61
1 Q. How big is the infants section, give it's
2 approximate measurement in feet or yards.
3 A. It's weird shaped. I don't know their layout on
4 the square footage.
5 Q. Approximately how many counters or racks in the
6 infant section?
7 A. I have no idea.
8 Q. More than 30?
9 A. I have no idea.
10 Q. More than five?
11 A. There are more than five.
12 Q. More than ten?
13 A. I don't know what they have.
14 Q. You don't recall how many sales associates were
15 in the infant section at the time?
16 A. No, I do not.
17 Q. There was at least one?
18 A. I don't know.
19 Q. Customarily is there a sales associates assigned
20 to the infant section?
21 A. I don't know their assignments.
22 Q. Was this infant section separated from other
23 sections by pedestrian walk areas?
24 A. Where I was watching them the walkway was in
25 between the two escalators, the third floor
62
1 coming down, and then there is a walkway and
2 then they were immediately in front of the
3 walkway.
4 Q. They were on one side of the walkway and you
5 were on the other side?
6 A. Yes, sir.
7 Q. You were in the boys section they were in the
8 infant section?
9 A. Yes, sir.
10 Q. To one side as you looked was the escalators, is
11 that right?
12 A. No, they would have been on my right.
13 Q. The escalators were on your right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. The infant section was in front of you where you
16 were looking?
17 A. Directly across from me.
18 Q. What was to your left?
19 A. Boys clothes in that section.
20 Q. Boys was to your left and behind you, or in the
21 area where you were standing?
22 A. Yes, sir.
23 Q. You don't recall seeing any sales associates at
24 all around, you just don't recall whether there
25 were any or not, is that correct?
63
1 A. No, there were some.
2 Q. In the infant section?
3 A. No, I don't recall in the infant section.
4 Q. You don't recall whether there were other
5 customers in the infant section?
6 A. No, I do not.
7 Q. How long did you observe the two females with
8 the two children?
9 A. I have to refresh my memory by looking at my
10 report.
11 Q. I show you what's been marked as Deposition
12 Exhibit 3 and ask you if that is a copy of your
13 report?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Tell you what, this might be a good time on this
16 Exhibit 3, do you see the part that says
17 "narrative"? Do you see where the narrative
18 begins, it says the word "narrative." do you see
19 that?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Would you just out loud read the first sentence
22 and, where there is an abbreviation use the
23 word, like R/O, I take it, is reporting officer?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Would you read that as that reporting officer?
64
1 A. "Reporting officer was watching two black
2 females with two kids and a stroller in the
3 children's Polo by the escalator."
4 Q. Now, if you would continue reading at a slow
5 pace.
6 A. I am sorry.
7 Q. No, you did fine. But there is a tendency to
8 speed up when you are reading, because there may
9 be some question about what was written. You
10 are familiar with your handwriting. If you
11 would read that slowly, and if you get going too
12 fast the court reporter will stop you.
13 A. Go ahead?
14 Q. Yes, continue, please.
15 A. "The black female that had on a dark leather
16 coat on had one pair of dark infant pants on a
17 hanger. The other black female left the area
18 with the children. I continued to watch the
19 black female with the dark leather coat. She
20 would stop walking, kept looking around toward
21 the ceiling and looking around as if to see if
22 someone was watching her. I noticed she had
23 another item that was dark and she rolled it up
24 and kept it in her left-hand. She kept going
25 back to the Polo section, picked up some khaki
65
1 pants, started looking around again to see if
2 someone was watching. She put down the pants,
3 the khaki, still had the dark colored pants on
4 the hanger. I watched her for about 15 minutes
5 by herself. The other black female with the
6 kids showed back up. All the people in the
7 group started walking in the same area. The one
8 I had been watching bent down and picked up one
9 of the children. I noticed the dark object she
10 had rolled up was still in her left hand and was
11 now under the infant she picked up. I then
12 stopped Pam Fitzgerel to watch the females. She
13 watched them go into an open dressing room.
14 Fitzgerel came up to me and said she observed
15 the black female with the coat on put something
16 under her coat. I asked Fitzgerel again if she
17 was positive what she saw, and she again stated
18 she observed the black female of putting
19 something under her coat.
20 "Both came out of the dressing room
21 and walked over --" This copy I can't read.
22 Q. Is it perhaps "into"?
23 A. If we want to agree on that, "into." I can't
24 read it.
25 MS. KOCH: That would be my guess. My
66
1 copy might be a little bit better than yours.
2 A. Yes, it is. "-- into another department and
3 purchased some items. Fitzgerel checked the
4 dressing room and it was empty. The black
5 female with the dark coat had come out with an
6 empty hanger. She laid it down on some
7 clothes.
8 "I followed them to men's cosmetic and
9 stopped them before they left the store. I
10 identified myself as Dillard's security and
11 advised them that the one black female had been
12 observed placing something in her coat. The
13 black female pushing the baby stroller said they
14 had purchased some items and I asked to look
15 into the bag. Inside were three items and a
16 receipt for the items. The lady pushing the
17 stroller started raising her voice about me
18 stopping her outside of Dillard's. I told her
19 she was still inside the store, and was trying
20 to explain the situation. She was starting to
21 get louder and louder, and I asked to calm
22 down. She kept interrupting me and --" I can't
23 read the next word. "-- talked loud. I told
24 her if she wouldn't calm down I would have to
25 call Overland Park Police Department. She said
67
1 go ahead. I even asked her if she wanted to go
2 to the office to talk, and she told the other
3 female she was going to return all the items
4 because she didn't need this. And she spent
5 $10,000 here last year. She wanted to use a
6 phone. I told her a pay phone was just outside
7 the door. She then stated something about
8 customer service and I advised her it was on the
9 third floor. I watched them go into the men's
10 department, and I left the area."
11 Q. And I then left the area, right?
12 A. Okay. "The female wearing the dark coat never
13 said a word. I did not look in her purse she
14 was carrying on her shoulder."
15 Q. Then it's signed, is that T.J. Wilson?
16 A. Wilson.
17 Q. When did you write this report?
18 A. Immediately.
19 Q. Within minutes after the incident?
20 A. Yes, sir.
21 Q. To whom did you give the report?
22 A. To Marvie Dirks.
23 Q. The question that prompted this was how long did
24 you observe these two woman, and in your report
25 I believe you stated you observed them for about
68
1 about 15 minutes, is that right?
2 A. No, I stated that I watched the young female for
3 approximately 15 minutes.
4 Q. And that was in the infant section?
5 A. In the Polo section.
6 Q. Is the Polo section next to the infant section?
7 A. It's in the infant section.
8 Q. It's a subpart of the infant section?
9 A. Yes, sir.
10 Q. Did you stay in the boys section during that
11 time?
12 A. Yes, I did.
13 Q. Were you visible to her or were you concealing
14 yourself?
15 A. Concealing.
16 Q. How were you concealing yourself?
17 A. I was behind some clothes or fixtures.
18 Q. Were you moving around?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. If a person in the infant section had been
21 looking in your direction, could that person
22 have seen you from time to time as you moved
23 around?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. At any time did you crouch down or do anything
69
1 that was not normal walking around in order to
2 conceal yourself?
3 A. I can't recall.
4 Q. Did you alert anyone else that you were watching
5 a woman with a suspicious baby stroller --
6 A. No.
7 Q. -- during this 15-minute period?
8 MS. KOCH: I object to the extent you
9 are mischaracterizing what he said in the
10 report.
11 Q. (By Mr. Benson) You may answer.
12 A. I was watching the young black female for 15
13 minutes.
14 Q. And she had the baby stroller?
15 A. No.
16 Q. The baby stroller had gone -- had left with
17 someone else?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. The older of the two females had departed with
20 the stroller?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And the two children?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. So only the younger female was left?
25 A. Yes.
70
1 Q. For 15 minutes what did she do?
2 A. As I stated earlier in my report that she kept
3 looking around to see if possibly somebody was
4 watching her and she would pick up an item and
5 then look around to see if somebody was
6 watching.
7 Q. What did she do with the item after she picked
8 it up?
9 A. Well, as I stated earlier, she had one on a
10 hanger and then she had something that was
11 rolled up in her hand.
12 Q. Do you remember anything about what she did that
13 is not in your report?
14 A. I don't understand.
15 Q. This incident took place now about a year and
16 five months ago. Do you have any independent
17 recollection of what happened on this occasion
18 other than what you have written in your report?
19 A. This is refreshing my memory.
20 Q. Yes. In addition to what your report says that
21 refreshes your recollection, do you have an
22 independent memory of anything else.
23 MS. KOCH: I object to the extent your
24 question is vague. The witness has testified
25 that he remembers the incident, and to the
71
1 extent you are trying to foreclose the witness
2 from responding to any questions, I object.
3 Q. (By Mr. Benson) You may answer.
4 A. I don't recall.
5 Q. How many items of clothing during this 15
6 minutes did the younger female look at?
7 A. Numerous.
8 Q. What is your best estimate as to what numerous
9 means?
10 A. More than one.
11 Q. More than three?
12 A. More than one.
13 Q. More than five?
14 A. More than one.
15 Q. You don't recall, is that correct?
16 A. I do not recall.
17 Q. Do you know where the other members of the
18 party, the older female and the two children
19 went?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Do you recall in which direction they went?
22 A. They went out toward the cosmetic area.
23 Q. Would that have been to your left or to your
24 right?
25 A. To my right.
72
1 Q. Which direction was the escalators?
2 A. To my right.
3 Q. Do you recall whether or not they went up or
4 down an escalator?
5 A. They did not go down.
6 Q. There is not a down escalator there?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. There is?
9 A. Right there.
10 Q. Is there a up escalator there, too?
11 A. No, it's around the corner.
12 Q. Do you recall where they went? They went toward
13 cosmetics, did you see them beyond that?
14 A. No.
15 Q. As to the two children, approximately how tall
16 were the two children?
17 A. I don't have a height, I don't recall.
18 Q. Were both of them shorter, say, than the waist
19 of the younger female?
20 A. I believe one was.
21 Q. And what about the second one, the other one?
22 A. I don't recall.
23 Q. Do you recall whether that one was shorter than
24 the waist, approximately as tall as the waist of
25 the younger female, or taller than the waist?
73
1 A. I don't recall.
2 Q. Do you recall whether either of children were as
3 tall as the shoulder of the younger female?
4 A. I don't believe there was one.
5 Q. Do you recall whether the children were boys or
6 girls?
7 A. No, I do not.
8 Q. Do you recall how either of the children were
9 dressed, what they were wearing?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Were they wearing pants or dresses?
12 A. I don't recall.
13 Q. Were they wearing a jumpsuit or a combination
14 outfit?
15 A. I don't recall.
16 Q. Did they have coats or jackets, the children?
17 A. I don't recall.
18 Q. As to the older of the two women, the one who
19 left, do you recall how she was dressed?
20 A. I don't recall.
21 Q. Do you recall whether she was wearing pants or a
22 dress?
23 A. I do not recall.
24 Q. Do you recall what color her clothing was?
25 A. No.
74
1 Q. Do you recall whether her hair was short or
2 long?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Do you recall whether she was wearing any
5 jewelry?
6 A. I do not recall.
7 Q. Do you recall whether she was wearing a coat or
8 jacket?
9 A. I do not recall.
10 Q. Do you recall anything about her other than that
11 she was a black female?
12 A. That she was pushing a baby stroller and had
13 some children with her.
14 Q. Do you recall anything about her appearance
15 other than that she was black?
16 A. No.
17 Q. The younger of the two females, the one who
18 stayed in the infant section, how was she
19 dressed?
20 A. She had a black coat on, a dark leather coat.
21 Q. Was this black coat waist length or thigh length
22 or knee or how long?
23 A. I don't recall the length.
24 Q. Did this black leather coat have a belt on it,
25 do you recall?
75
1 A. I do not recall.
2 Q. Was it single breasted or double breasted?
3 A. I do not recall.
4 Q. Did it have pockets?
5 A. I do not recall.
6 Q. Was the younger female wearing the black leather
7 coat the whole time?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Did you ever see her take it off?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Did this black leather coat have a collar?
12 A. I do not recall.
13 Q. Would you describe it as a car coat or a rain
14 coat style?
15 A. Just a dark leather coat.
16 Q. Do you recall whether this younger female
17 wearing the black leather coat was wearing pants
18 or a dress?
19 A. I do not recall.
20 Q. Whether she was wearing shoes or boots?
21 A. I do not recall.
22 Q. Tennis shoes?
23 A. I do not recall.
24 Q. Do you recall what she was wearing in terms of a
25 shirt or blouse?
76
1 A. No.
2 Q. Do you recall anything about her appearance
3 other than that she was a black female wearing a
4 black leather coat?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Do you recall whether her hair was short or
7 long?
8 A. I do not recall.
9 Q. Whether she was wearing jewelry?
10 A. I do not recall.
11 Q. When the stroller caught your attention as you
12 were walking through, where did you say you were
13 headed?
14 A. I was walking the store.
15 Q. In which direction were you headed?
16 A. I was walking north.
17 Q. Were you walking toward a particular section?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Just walking?
20 A. Yes, sir.
21 Q. When the stroller caught your attention, how
22 long after you noticed the stroller did the
23 older woman and the two children leave the
24 infant section?
25 A. It wasn't immediate.
77
1 Q. Did you watch them for 30 seconds, a minute and
2 a half, something like that, before the older
3 woman and the two children left the section?
4 A. It was longer than that.
5 Q. About how long was it?
6 A. It was longer than a minute and a half. I don't
7 recall the exact time on it.
8 Q. Was it as long as four or five minutes?
9 A. It could be.
10 Q. After the woman in the stroller and the two
11 children left, that's when you then watched the
12 younger female for about 15 minutes, is that
13 correct?
14 A. Correct.
15 Q. So your entire observation period from the time
16 you saw the stroller until the end of the
17 15-minute observation period could have been as
18 long as about 20 minutes?
19 A. It could.
20 Q. But you know it was more than 16 1/2 minutes?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Could it have been longer than 20 minutes, or is
23 it probable that it was longer than 20 minutes?
24 A. I don't recall.
25 Q. During this period that was from a minute and a
78
1 half to about five minutes that you observed all
2 four of the people and the stroller in the
3 infant section, what were they doing, what were
4 the adults doing?
5 A. Looking at clothes.
6 Q. Holding them up to the children?
7 A. No.
8 Q. What were they doing as they looked at the
9 clothes, were they taking them off racks,
10 putting them back on?
11 A. They were looking at clothes, and the young
12 black female was looking around to see if
13 somebody was watching.
14 Q. You don't know what was in her mind at that
15 time, do you?
16 A. No.
17 Q. So you don't know why she was looking around?
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. While she was looking around, the older black
20 female was looking at clothes?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. The younger black female was not looking at
23 clothes?
24 A. She would look at clothes briefly, and then
25 start looking around.
79
1 Q. When she looked at clothes how did she look at
2 clothes, what did she do to look at clothes?
3 A. She picked an item up, glanced at it, hold it in
4 her hand, and looked around and it appeared to
5 me to see if somebody was watching.
6 Q. And then put the item back down?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. During this period that lasted a minute and a
9 half to five minutes, while the four were there
10 with the stroller, about how many items of
11 clothing did the older black female look at?
12 A. I don't recall.
13 Q. More than four or five?
14 A. I don't recall.
15 Q. Do you know how many the younger black female
16 looked at?
17 A. No.
18 Q. More than four or five items?
19 A. I don't recall.
20 Q. Do you recall what items of clothing they looked
21 at?
22 A. As I stated in my report earlier, the young
23 female had a dark colored pants on a hanger, and
24 then picked up some khaki pants.
25 Q. The third line of your narrative that begins,
80
1 "That had on a dark leather coat," do you see
2 that?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Then it goes on to read, "That had on a dark
5 leather coat on, and had one pair of dark infant
6 pants."
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Is that what it reads?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Now the word "dark," is that in your
11 handwriting, toward the end of that third line?
12 A. It appears to be my handwriting.
13 Q. It appears to have been added after you wrote
14 the rest of it, do you see that?
15 A. I could have put it in while I was writing that
16 line.
17 Q. You wrote the line and went back and decided you
18 better add the word "dark?"
19 A. No. I probably made a correction while I was
20 writing it.
21 Q. Do you recall making this correction?
22 A. I don't recall.
23 Q. Is it in your handwriting?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Is it your testimony that the word "dark" was
81
1 written in by you by the time you had completed
2 and signed this report?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. When you say she had a pair of dark infant pants
5 on a hanger, she was holding it by the hanger?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. This was the older of the two women, is that
8 right, that you are referring to here?
9 A. No.
10 Q. This is the younger of the two?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. She had this one item of clothing, while the
13 others were still there, is that correct? This
14 one dark pair of infant pants on a hanger you
15 are referring to was while the older woman and
16 the two children were still there, is that
17 correct?
18 A. I don't recall if she was holding it.
19 Q. You say she had one pair of black infant pants
20 on a hanger. What do you mean by "had?"
21 A. In her possession.
22 Q. She had it in her possession?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Do you recall how she had it in her possession?
25 A. On a hanger.
82
1 Q. Do you recall how the hanger and pants were in
2 her possession, was it folded over her arm, was
3 she holding it?
4 A. Holding it.
5 Q. Holding the hanger?
6 A. Yes, sir.
7 Q. She was holding -- the younger female was
8 holding the hanger with one pair of dark infant
9 pants on it, while the older female and the
10 children and the stroller were still in the
11 infant section, is that correct?
12 A. I don't recall.
13 Q. Your report goes on to say, "The other black
14 female left the area with the children."
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You wrote that sentence -- that sentence comes
17 after the sentence where you say the younger
18 female had a pair of dark infant pants on a
19 hanger. So is it your best recollection that
20 the younger female had the pants on a hanger
21 while the others in her party were still in the
22 infant section?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And the other black female then left with the
25 children, and you continued to watch the female
83
1 with the black leather coat?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. That's when the 15-minute observation period
4 began when the others left, is that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. During this 15 minutes, did you notice the young
7 black female pick up and look at any other
8 merchandise other than the black pair of pants
9 on a hanger?
10 A. The khaki pants.
11 Q. Okay. Anything else that you remember?
12 A. And another item that was dark that she had
13 rolled up and she kept it in her left hand.
14 Q. Do you know what this dark rolled up item in her
15 left hand was?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Do you even know if it was Dillard's
18 merchandise?
19 A. No.
20 Q. She picked up some khaki pants. Were they on a
21 hanger?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. You believe the khaki pants to have been
24 Dillard's merchandise?
25 A. Yes.
84
1 Q. What did she do with those khaki pants?
2 A. She put down the khaki pants.
3 Q. By putting down, you mean she hung them back up
4 on the rack?
5 A. I don't know if she laid them down or hung them
6 back up, but she didn't have them any more.
7 Q. You don't recall what she did with them?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Then she still had the dark colored pants on the
10 hanger, is that correct, after she put the khaki
11 pants down?
12 A. She still had the dark colored pants on a
13 hanger.
14 Q. Now, other than the dark colored pants on a
15 hanger and the khaki pants that she picked up
16 and put down, do you recall any other items of
17 Dillard's merchandise that she handled during
18 this 15 minutes you were observing her?
19 A. She was looking at numerous clothing items.
20 Q. Numerous meaning?
21 A. More than one.
22 Q. But not necessarily more than five?
23 A. I can't recall the exact number.
24 Q. You don't recall whether -- or do you recall
25 what items of clothing she looked at, were they
85
1 pants, shirts, jackets?
2 A. No, I did not.
3 Q. During this 15 minutes she continually was
4 looking around, looking for other people, you
5 presume, or looking to see if she was watched?
6 A. She did that in addition to looking at the
7 clothes.
8 Q. During this time that she was looking around and
9 looking at the clothes, did you yourself see her
10 conceal any Dillard's merchandise on or about
11 her person or her belongings?
12 A. No.
13 Q. During this 15 minutes, how many other customers
14 came through the infant section, do you recall?
15 A. I do not recall.
16 Q. Some did, isn't that correct?
17 A. I don't recall.
18 Q. You don't recall if any customers came through?
19 A. I don't recall.
20 Q. Do you recall if there were any sales associates
21 who were in or around the infant section during
22 this 15-minute observation period?
23 A. I don't recall in the infant section.
24 Q. Do you recall whether or not the younger female
25 was helped by or consulted with a sales
86
1 associate during that 15-minute period?
2 A. She was not.
3 Q. Did a sales associates approach her and ask if
4 the younger female needed any help?
5 A. Not that I recall.
6 Q. You don't recall seeing a sales associate in the
7 infant section during that 15 minutes, is that
8 correct?
9 A. Correct.
10 Q. After the 15 minutes ended, the other female
11 with the kids came back into the infant section,
12 is that correct?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. Pushing the stroller?
15 A. Correct.
16 Q. Were either of the kids riding in the stroller?
17 A. I don't recall.
18 Q. Were they carrying any packages or Dillard's
19 sacks?
20 A. Not that I recall.
21 Q. What were they carrying when they came back?
22 A. She was pushing the baby stroller.
23 Q. Other than pushing the baby stroller, were any
24 of them carrying anything?
25 A. I believe purses.
87
1 Q. How many purses was she carrying when she came
2 back?
3 A. I do not recall.
4 Q. Did each of them have a purse, each of the two
5 black females?
6 A. I don't recall.
7 Q. Why did you mention purses, do you remember
8 seeing purses?
9 A. I think in my report that I stated when I read
10 it to you.
11 Q. In the very last line said you did not look in
12 the purse the younger one was carrying on her
13 shoulder?
14 A. Correct.
15 Q. Do you recall the older woman, when she was
16 coming back pushing the stroller whether or not
17 she had or was carrying a purse?
18 A. I do not recall.
19 Q. What do you recall as to the location of the
20 purse, if any, of the younger female during this
21 15 minutes you were observing her by herself?
22 A. On her shoulder.
23 Q. What color was it?
24 A. I do not recall.
25 Q. Do you recall if it was brown or black?
88
1 A. I do not recall.
2 Q. Light or dark?
3 A. I do not recall.
4 Q. Cloth or leather?
5 A. I do not recall.
6 Q. Large or small?
7 A. I do not recall.
8 Q. Is it bigger than your open hand?
9 A. I do not recall.
10 Q. Was it a clutch purse?
11 A. I do not recall.
12 Q. Was it a large bag?
13 A. I do not recall.
14 Q. If you don't recall, you wouldn't recognize it
15 if you saw it again, would you?
16 A. That's correct.
17 Q. Is it true that if you saw the clothes the
18 younger female was wearing you would not likely
19 recognize them again?
20 A. I would not.
21 Q. Would you recognize the black leather coat if
22 you saw it again?
23 A. No.
24 Q. When the older black female came back with the
25 two children and the stroller, did the two women
89
1 speak to each other?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Could you hear what they said?
4 A. No.
5 Q. How far away from them were you?
6 A. About 25 feet.
7 Q. Is that about how far you were away from them
8 most of the time during your observation?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Did either of them show anything to the other?
11 A. Clothing.
12 Q. Where did the clothing come from that they
13 showed?
14 A. In that section.
15 Q. They resumed looking at clothing in the infant
16 section?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. The younger black woman still had the dark pants
19 on the hanger. Did she show those to the older
20 woman?
21 A. I don't recall.
22 Q. How long did you observe the two women and the
23 children after they rejoined in the infant
24 section?
25 A. Minutes. I cannot tell you. It was a short
90
1 time.
2 Q. More than two minutes?
3 A. It could have been.
4 Q. More than five minutes?
5 A. I don't recall.
6 MS. KOCH: Excuse me. When you reach
7 a good breaking point, I need a real quick
8 break.
9 MR. BENSON: Okay.
10 (A recess was taken.)
11 Q. (By Mr. Benson) Mr. Wilson, on this occasion
12 what were you wearing?
13 A. Plain clothes.
14 Q. What did that consist of that day?
15 A. I don't remember what I had on.
16 Q. Were you wearing a tie and jacket?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Were you wearing a open neck shirt?
19 A. I don't recall what I had on.
20 Q. Tennis shoes?
21 A. I don't know.
22 Q. Do you recall what kind of pants you had on?
23 A. Jeans.
24 Q. Do you recall if you were wearing a sweater or a
25 jacket over your shirt?
91
1 A. I don't recall.
2 Q. I see you are wearing glasses. Do you
3 customarily wear glasses?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Do you ever wear contact lenses?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Are your glasses prescribed for nearsightedness
8 or farsightedness?
9 A. For reading.
10 Q. So I guess if you have to wear glasses when you
11 are reading, that means you are farsighted, and
12 you need glasses for your short distance
13 reading.
14 Were you wearing glasses at the time
15 you were observing the women in the infant
16 section on this day in question?
17 A. No.
18 Q. During this short period of time that could have
19 been from two to five minutes, did the women
20 spend any of their time minding the children or
21 keeping track of the children?
22 A. I don't recall.
23 Q. During this period of time when the women had
24 rejoined each other in the infant section, did
25 they try on any clothes while you were observing
92
1 them?
2 A. No.
3 Q. While the two women were back together in the
4 infant section, do you recall if there were
5 other customers in the infant section?
6 A. I don't recall.
7 Q. Do you recall if there were any sales associates
8 in the infant section?
9 A. I don't recall.
10 Q. Were you continuing to attempt to conceal
11 yourself in the boys section?
12 A. I was still in the boys section.
13 Q. Were you trying to conceal yourself from the two
14 women who were back together in the infant
15 section?
16 A. I don't recall.
17 Q. You had been trying to conceal yourself during
18 the 15 minutes that you watched the younger
19 woman alone, is that correct?
20 A. That was concealing off and on, because I would
21 walk around.
22 Q. So anyone in the infant section who had been
23 observing could have seen you off and on walking
24 around in the boys section?
25 A. Yes.
93
1 Q. The younger female could have seen you off and
2 on as she was being observed by you during this
3 15 minutes, is that correct?
4 MS. KOCH: Object to the question to
5 the extent it calls for speculation. You may go
6 ahead and answer.
7 A. I can't answer that for her.
8 Q. (By Mr. Benson) Was she in a position during
9 the 15 minutes you were observing her to see
10 you?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Why is that, what obscured her vision of you?
13 A. She really wasn't looking my way. She was
14 avoiding me, where I was.
15 Q. You say she was avoiding looking at you?
16 A. No. Where I was, not me in particular.
17 Q. You say it's your belief she was avoiding
18 looking at the area in which you were standing?
19 A. Where I was observing her.
20 Q. On what basis do you believe that she was
21 avoiding looking at the area from which you were
22 observing her?
23 A. I can't answer that for her.
24 Q. You just told me you thought she was avoiding
25 you, so that puts some motivation in her mind.
94
1 You don't really have any basis for that
2 motivation, do you?
3 A. No.
4 Q. All you know is -- is it your testimony now that
5 during that 15 minutes she never once looked
6 over at the boys section where you were located?
7 A. We never made eye contact.
8 Q. Did she ever look over toward the boys section
9 from which you were observing her?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You don't know whether or not she saw you?
12 A. I can't answer that for her.
13 Q. You were not, throughout this 15 minutes, trying
14 to conceal yourself from her, were you?
15 A. I was moving.
16 Q. My question is, were you trying to conceal
17