Document provided by Benson & Associates
3 PAULA DARLENE HAMPTON and
DEMETRIA COOPER,
4
Plaintiffs,
5
vs. No. 97-2182-KHV
6
DILLARD'S DEPARTMENT
7 STORES, INC.,
8 Defendant.
9
10 DEPOSITION OF THOMAS J. WILSON, a witness,
taken on behalf of the Plaintiffs, pursuant to
11 Notice, on the 8th day of September, 1997, at the
law offices of Spencer, Fane, Britt & Browne, 9401
12 Indian Creek Parkway, Suite 500, Overland Park,
Kansas, before
13
JUDY L. WHITEHOUSE,
14
of AAA Reporting Company, a Notary Public of the
15 State of Kansas.
16 APPEARANCES
17 For the Plaintiffs:
MR. ARTHUR BENSON and
18 MS. KATHY D. FINNELL
ARTHUR BENSON & ASSOCIATES
19 1000 Walnut Street, Suite 1125
Kansas City, Missouri 64106-2123
20
21 For the Defendant:
MS. ELAINE DRODGE KOCH and
22 MS. KAREN KESSLER CAIN
SPENCER, FANE, BRITT & BROWNE
23 1000 Walnut Street, Suite 1400
Kansas City, Missouri 64106
24
25
2
1 STIPULATION
2 It was stipulated by and between counsel
3 that the presentment of this deposition to the
4 witness by the officer is expressly waived, and that
5 if said deposition is not signed by the witness by
6 the time of the commencement of the trial, it may be
7 used as though signed.
8
9 INDEX
10 WITNESS: Thomas J. Wilson PAGE:
11 Examination by Mr. Benson 3
Examination by Ms. Koch 212
12 Reexamination by Mr. Benson 213
13
14
EXHIBITS: MARKED:
15
1 - Security Rules & Regulations 45
16 2 - Security Officer objectives 2/97 45
3 - Incident report 45
17 4 - Shrinkage, we all pay 45
5 - Security officer objectives 2/27/96 205
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
3
1 (The deposition commenced at 9:03
2 a.m.)
3 THOMAS J. WILSON,
4 a witness, being first duly sworn, testified
5 under oath as follows:
6 EXAMINATION BY MR. BENSON:
7 Q. I have about 9:03. Please state your name.
8 A. Thomas J. Wilson.
9 Q. How are you employed?
10 A. I have two jobs. One is a sergeant with the
11 Kansas Highway Patrol, and the second one is
12 with Dillard's security.
13 Q. Where do you reside?
14 A. [Deleted]
15 Q. Are you married?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Do you have children?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Do you have any children?
20 A. No. Why?
21 Q. Just asking.
22 A. I was just curious.
23 Q. I just ask questions.
24 MS. KOCH: He will be asking a couple
25 of questions about your background.
4
1 THE WITNESS: I've never had that one
2 asked before.
3 MS. KOCH: Remember, everything is on
4 the record. He will be asking you questions and
5 you will be answering. The court reporter will
6 be taking everything down.
7 Q. (By Mr. Benson) Do you prefer to be called
8 Sergeant Wilson or Mr. Wilson?
9 A. I am off duty, Mr. Wilson would be fine.
10 Q. Mr. Wilson, have you retained counsel concerning
11 this case?
12 A. Dillard's has.
13 Q. Do you have a personal attorney?
14 A. I don't have a personal attorney.
15 Q. Do you consider yourself to be represented by
16 counsel at this deposition?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. All right. Prior to this deposition, did you
19 engage in any preparation for the deposition?
20 A. As to?
21 Q. Did you review any documents?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. What documents did you review?
24 A. My report that I made.
25 Q. Any other documents?
5
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. What documents?
3 A. I looked at officer Cleveland's report, and a
4 Pam Fitzgerel.
5 Q. Any other documents that you reviewed?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Did you review or read any depositions that have
8 been taken in this case?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Did you meet with or talk to by telephone with
11 any Dillard's employees concerning your
12 preparation for this deposition?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Have you discussed this litigation with any
15 Dillard's employees?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Who are they?
18 A. Marvie Dirks.
19 Q. When did you last discuss this litigation with
20 her?
21 A. I cannot recall.
22 Q. Within the last two weeks?
23 A. No, sir.
24 Q. Do you recall how many such discussions
25 concerning this litigation you have had with
6
1 Marvie Dirks?
2 A. Just when I was notified of this.
3 Q. What was the substance of that discussion?
4 A. That I would be having a phone call from Elaine.
5 Q. Any other substance in your discussions with
6 Marvie Dirks?
7 A. No, sir.
8 Q. Have you been deposed before?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. On approximately how many occasions?
11 A. I cannot recall.
12 Q. More than ten?
13 A. No.
14 Q. If at any time you don't understand any question
15 I ask, will you be sure to indicate it so I can
16 repeat it or rephrase it?
17 A. I will.
18 Q. Do you understand that at any time during the
19 deposition that you think of an answer to a
20 prior question or you think of something that
21 would require you to supplement or change your
22 answer that you should do that at any time it
23 occurs to you?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Even if I am in the middle of a question say,
7
1 "Excuse me, Mr. Benson, I just remembered
2 something on a question you asked me 20 minutes
3 ago," will you be sure and do that?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Even after the deposition if you think of
6 something that is material that you believe
7 requires you to change or supplement an answer,
8 would you please contact the attorneys for
9 Dillard's and advise them?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Have you ever been a party to a civil suit
12 either as a plaintiff or a defendant?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Have you ever been a witness in a civil suit?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Have testified as a witness in criminal cases?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. On many occasions?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Mr. Wilson, as of today, do you believe either
21 of the plaintiffs in this case, Paula Hampton or
22 Demetria Cooper, left the Dillard's store at
23 Oak Park Mall on April 5th, 1996, with property
24 of Dillard's they had not paid for?
25 A. Yes.
8
1 Q. Which one?
2 A. The young female.
3 Q. Demetria Cooper?
4 A. I did not have their names.
5 Q. There were two females involved in this
6 incident?
7 A. Yes, sir.
8 Q. One appeared younger than the other?
9 A. Yes, sir.
10 Q. You are saying it's your belief that the younger
11 of the two left with property of Dillard's not
12 paid for?
13 A. Yes, sir.
14 Q. Is it your belief that Demetria Cooper stole
15 property from Dillard's on that occasion?
16 A. Yes, sir.
17 Q. What property was it that was stolen?
18 A. It was one item that was dark in color.
19 Q. What was the item?
20 A. I have no idea.
21 Q. Was it an item of clothing?
22 A. Yes, sir.
23 Q. What else can you tell us about this item other
24 than it was clothing and dark in color?
25 A. That's it.
9
1 Q. What is the basis for your belief that the
2 younger of the females stole property from
3 Dillard's on April 5th, 1996?
4 A. Just talking to Pam Fitzgerel.
5 Q. On the date April 5th or in any conversations
6 subsequent to that?
7 A. I don't know the date of this.
8 Q. All right.
9 A. If you just tell me --
10 MS. KOCH: For the record, we can say
11 the date of the incident in question is April
12 5th, 1996.
13 A. Okay.
14 Q. (By Mr. Benson) Let me repeat my question. You
15 say that part of your basis for believing that
16 the young female stole property on April 5th,
17 1996, was a conversation with Pam Fitzgerel.
18 Is that a single conversation, or more than one
19 conversations?
20 A. Single.
21 Q. Was this a conversation that occurred on April
22 5th, 1996?
23 A. Yes, sir.
24 Q. Was that a conversation that occurred before you
25 approached Paula Hampton or Demetria Cooper, the
10
1 two females involved?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Any other basis for your belief that the younger
4 of the two females stole property of Dillard's
5 on April 5th, 1996, other than your conversation
6 with Pam Fitzgerel before you approached the two
7 women?
8 A. Of my observation, prior to Ms. Fitzgerel.
9 Q. Any other basis besides your conversation with
10 Fitzgerel and your observation?
11 A. No, sir.
12 Q. Mr. Wilson, I assume you graduated from high
13 school, is that correct?
14 A. Correct.
15 Q. Where did you attend high school?
16 A. Hutchinson.
17 Q. When did you graduate?
18 A. 1968.
19 Q. You attended college?
20 A. Junior college.
21 Q. Where?
22 A. Hutchinson Community College, and got an AA in
23 1974. And also got an AA from Colby Community
24 College with an AA in criminal justice.
25 Q. In what year?
11
1 A. I don't know.
2 Q. Any other college attendance?
3 A. No, sir.
4 Q. What was your first full-time employment after
5 high school?
6 A. I worked for my father.
7 Q. What business was he in?
8 A. Self-employed in sprinkler systems, wells,
9 pumps.
10 Q. How long did you work for your father?
11 A. After high school?
12 Q. Yes. Full time.
13 A. One year.
14 Q. What was your next --
15 A. Excuse me. Well, that was not full time. I was
16 going to college at the time.
17 Q. What was your first full-time job after high
18 school?
19 A. Uncle Sam, US Army.
20 Q. Do you recall what years you were in the Army?
21 A. 1969 to 1972.
22 Q. Were you drafted or enlisted?
23 A. Enlisted.
24 Q. What was your rank when you were discharged?
25 A. Sergeant.
12
1 Q. Was it an honorable discharge?
2 A. Yes, sir.
3 Q. Where did you serve?
4 A. Served at Fort Leavenworth and Inchon, Korea.
5 Q. What was your military occupational specialty?
6 A. I had two, one was a correctional confinement,
7 and the other one was military police.
8 Q. What was your next full-time employment after
9 the Army?
10 A. Kansas Highway Patrol.
11 Q. When were you first employed by the Highway
12 Patrol?
13 A. November 18th, 1974.
14 Q. Have you been continuously employed by the
15 Kansas Highway Patrol since 1974?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. How long have you been working part-time at
18 Dillard's?
19 A. A little over two years.
20 Q. Do you recall the month or the day and month
21 when you first began working at Dillard's?
22 A. No, sir.
23 Q. About how many hours per week do you work at
24 Dillard's?
25 A. I cannot speculate.
13
1 Q. What is your best estimate?
2 A. I can't, because they are some weeks I don't
3 even work.
4 Q. About how many hours per year do you work?
5 A. I don't know.
6 Q. Do you recall how much you earned at Dillard's
7 in 1996?
8 A. No, sir.
9 Q. What is the highest number of hours you work in
10 a week at Dillard's during the last two years?
11 A. 35 hours.
12 Q. Were you on vacation from the Highway Patrol at
13 that time?
14 A. I don't recall.
15 Q. What is a customary or a usual number of hours,
16 say, to the nearest five, 18 to 20 or something
17 like that?
18 A. I have had variance from two hours up to 35
19 hours.
20 Q. Who determines how many hours you work at
21 Dillard's?
22 A. My scheduling.
23 Q. Are you offered work, and if it didn't conflict
24 with your Highway Patrol duties then you accept
25 the assignment?
14
1 A. Yes, sir.
2 Q. During the last two years, have you been working
3 a particular shift for the highway patrol?
4 A. No, sir.
5 Q. Your shift rotates?
6 A. Yes, sir.
7 Q. How often does it rotate?
8 A. Every six days.
9 Q. Would you describe your shift rotation with the
10 Highway Patrol, how does it -- what are the
11 shifts that you rotate through?
12 A. We work a day shift, then we go on days off, and
13 then we work an evening shift, and then days
14 off, and then we go back to a day shift.
15 Q. When you work a day shift, what are the hours of
16 the day shift?
17 A. I don't have a set hour. I can come out
18 anywhere from 6:00 to 8:00 in the morning.
19 Q. Who determines that?
20 A. I do.
21 Q. Is the day shift an eight-hour day?
22 A. Eight and a half hours.
23 Q. How many days do you work on the day shift
24 before you get days off?
25 A. As I stated earlier, six.
15
1 Q. Six?
2 A. Yes, sir.
3 Q. Six days on the day shift?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. How many days off?
6 A. Two days.
7 Q. Then six days on the night shift?
8 A. Yes, sir.
9 Q. Do you determine when you begin the night shift?
10 A. I have flexibility on my hours.
11 Q. Within what range?
12 A. Anywhere from 12:00 to 9:00.
13 Q. 12:00 noon?
14 A. Yes, sir, until 9:00 p.m.
15 Q. And the night shift is also an eight and a half
16 hour shift?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And two more days off?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And then back to day shift?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Have you been assigned to continuing training or
23 on an annual or semi-annual basis for the
24 Highway Patrol?
25 A. Yes.
16
1 Q. What is the Highway Patrol's requirements for
2 ongoing training?
3 A. We have -- patrol puts on their own in-service
4 training.
5 Q. How often do you participate in the patrol's
6 in-service training?
7 A. Once a year.
8 Q. What does it consist of in terms of length, is
9 it a one-day, two-day?
10 A. No, it's during the week. I don't know if it's
11 32 hours or 36 hours.
12 Q. Is that required that you participate in it once
13 a year?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. When did you most recently participate in the
16 Kansas Highway Patrol in-service training?
17 A. December, January.
18 Q. What topics did it cover?
19 A. Various topics.
20 Q. Such as?
21 A. You would have to check the training records.
22 Q. I would like your best recall of it.
23 A. I don't remember.
24 Q. Can you remember any single topic from your last
25 Kansas Highway Patrol in-service?
17
1 A. The last one?
2 Q. Yes.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. What can you remember?
5 A. Physical agility testing.
6 Q. How long did that last?
7 A. I was fast runner, so it didn't take long.
8 Q. Did the physical agility test consist of
9 anything other than running?
10 A. Strength test.
11 Q. Anything else?
12 A. No.
13 Q. How long did the running and strength tests
14 take, under an hour?
15 A. Under an hour.
16 Q. Can you remember any other topics from your most
17 recent Kansas Highway Patrol in-service?
18 A. Employee evaluation.
19 Q. How long did the presentation of the employee
20 evaluation topic last?
21 A. I don't know.
22 Q. Under two hours?
23 A. I don't know.
24 Q. Less than a whole day?
25 A. I don't know.
18
1 Q. You don't remember?
2 A. That's correct.
3 Q. What other topics were covered in the Kansas
4 Highway Patrol in-service you last attended?
5 A. I can't remember.
6 Q. You don't recall any others?
7 A. I can't remember what was that week.
8 Q. Is it spread over four days or five days?
9 A. I can't remember if it's four or five.
10 Q. Where was it held?
11 A. At our training academy in Salina, Kansas.
12 Q. Does the Kansas Highway Patrol offer any other
13 formal training in addition to its annual
14 in-service?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. What are those training opportunities?
17 A. There are various ones, standardized field
18 sobriety testing, commercial vehicle Level 2
19 inspections, kinesic training.
20 Q. What is that, kinesic training?
21 A. Yes, sir.
22 Q. That has to do with weight and momentum?
23 A. I have no idea. I just look at the rosters that
24 come out that offer additional training if you
25 would like to attend.
19
1 Q. Any others that you can think of?
2 A. Drug recognition evaluation, radar instructor.
3 Q. Any others you can think of?
4 A. No, I can't.
5 Q. Have you participated in any of these training
6 options that you have described, say, in the
7 last five years?
8 A. I cannot remember for five years.
9 Q. However far back you can remember, when do you
10 last recall?
11 Let me ask it this way: Are these
12 voluntary training opportunities?
13 A. Yes, sir.
14 Q. Do you get paid for attending them if you elect
15 to?
16 A. We are paid monthly.
17 Q. Do you get paid extra for attending these
18 voluntarily?
19 A. No, sir.
20 Q. If you attend these voluntary training sessions
21 does it benefit you at all in terms of your pay?
22 A. No, sir.
23 Q. When is the last time you can recall having
24 attended one of these voluntary training
25 sessions?
20
1 A. I can't recall.
2 Q. More than two years ago?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. More than five years ago?
5 A. I can't recall.
6 Q. Do you recall what the topic was of the last
7 voluntary Kansas Highway Patrol training session
8 you attended?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Can you recall the topics of any of the Kansas
11 Highway Patrol voluntary training sessions you
12 have ever attended?
13 A. Motorcycle gangs.
14 Q. Do you recall any others?
15 A. Drug recognition examiner, motorcycle school.
16 That's all I can recall.
17 Q. Do you recall approximately how long ago it was
18 that you attended had any of those three
19 voluntary training sessions?
20 A. No.
21 Q. When you enlisted in the Army, after you
22 finished basic training, did you participate in
23 training for your correctional confinement and
24 military police duties?
25 A. Yes.
21
1 Q. Where did that training take place?
2 A. Fort Gordon, Georgia.
3 Q. How long did that last?
4 A. I don't recall.
5 Q. Did you do them both at the same time?
6 A. I went to three schools.
7 Q. One after another?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. When you finished them, you ended up with your
10 two MOSs?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. How long did each of those three schools last?
13 A. I can't recall.
14 Q. Do you recall what the names of the three
15 schools were?
16 A. First one was a leadership school, then the
17 second one was military police, and the third
18 one was correctional.
19 Q. Were they all at Fort Gordon?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. As best you can recall, what did the leadership
22 school consist of?
23 A. To be a platoon leader.
24 Q. What did the training consist of to help you
25 become a platoon leader?
22
1 A. Discipline.
2 Q. What else?
3 A. That was what leadership school was for.
4 Q. What did the military police school consist of?
5 A. Various police activities, and all the military
6 does.
7 Q. Such as?
8 A. Instead of being a police officer in civilian
9 life, you are a police officer in the military.
10 Q. What can you recall that the military police
11 school training consisted of at Fort Gordon,
12 what did you do during your enrollment in that
13 school?
14 A. I can't recall the curriculum.
15 Q. Are these like a two- or three-week school?
16 A. No. They were longer than two or three weeks.
17 Q. How long were they?
18 A. They were longer than that.
19 Q. Was the leadership school longer than a month?
20 A. No.
21 Q. How long was the leadership school?
22 A. I think it was two weeks.
23 Q. How long was the military police school?
24 A. I can't recall.
25 Q. Four or six weeks, in that range?
23
1 A. I can't recall.
2 Q. Was it longer than two months?
3 A. I don't know.
4 Q. How long was the correctional school?
5 A. I don't remember.
6 Q. Longer than two weeks?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Longer than a month?
9 A. I don't know.
10 Q. What did the correctional school consist of,
11 what did you do when you were in that school?
12 A. On dealing with prisoners.
13 Q. Anything else other than dealing with prisoners?
14 A. That was what correctional field was.
15 Q. After you finished your three school at Fort
16 Gordon, did you serve in the Army as both a
17 correctional confinement officer and a military
18 police officer?
19 A. Yes, sir.
20 Q. In which capacity did you serve longer?
21 A. Correctional field.
22 Q. Correctional what?
23 A. Field.
24 Q. In the correctional field?
25 A. Yes.
24
1 Q. Where were you stationed when you were in the
2 correctional field?
3 A. At Fort Leavenworth.
4 Q. At the military barracks?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. How long were you there?
7 A. I am thinking around two years.
8 Q. While you were stationed at Fort Leavenworth did
9 your duties include anything other than dealing
10 with prisoners?
11 A. No. Oh, yes, military police.
12 Q. You did some MP work at Fort Leavenworth?
13 A. Yes, sir.
14 Q. What did that consist of?
15 A. I was a sergeant road patrol.
16 Q. In the Fort Leavenworth area?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. On the base?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. What were your duties as a sergeant road patrol?
21 A. Being in charge of people that were out on the
22 road.
23 Q. Were you yourself out on the road as well?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. How many people were you in charge of?
25
1 A. I cannot recall.
2 Q. Under ten?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Did you do that while you were also a
5 correctional confinement officer, or you went
6 from one to the other?
7 A. Went from one to the other.
8 Q. How long were you in your MP duties at Fort
9 Leavenworth?
10 A. I can't recall.
11 Q. You were at Fort Leavenworth for a total of
12 about two years?
13 A. Yes, sir.
14 Q. Were you in the correctional occupational
15 specialty for most of that time?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. After you left Fort Leavenworth, is that when
18 you were transferred to Inchon, Korea?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. How long were you in Korea?
21 A. I think four, four and a half months.
22 Q. Were you an MP exclusively while you were there?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. What were your duties as an MP in Korea?
25 A. I was a sergeant, road sergeant.
26
1 Q. On the base at Inchon?
2 A. Yes, on the military installation.
3 Q. Did you have any duties as an MP at the military
4 installation in Korea other than the road
5 sergeant on the base?
6 A. No.
7 Q. When you joined the Highway Patrol in Kansas,
8 where were you first assigned?
9 A. Goodland, Kansas.
10 Q. How long were you in Goodland?
11 A. Almost five years.
12 Q. Then where?
13 A. Topeka.
14 Q. How long in Topeka?
15 A. Five years.
16 Q. Then where?
17 A. Wichita.
18 Q. How long in Wichita?
19 A. Nine years.
20 Q. Then where?
21 A. Kansas City.
22 Q. And you have been here ever since?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. When did you become a sergeant in the Highway
25 Patrol?
27
1 A. 1988.
2 Q. From 1974 to 1988, what was your rank, was that
3 patrol officer?
4 A. I was a trooper.
5 Q. What were your duties -- you were a trooper in
6 all three, Goodland, Topeka, and Wichita, is
7 that right?
8 A. And then I got promoted while I was in Wichita.
9 Q. What were your duties as a trooper in Goodland
10 and Topeka?
11 A. In Goodland I was a road trooper. I transferred
12 to Topeka with aircraft, flying, and then I
13 transferred back to the road.
14 Q. Do you have a pilot's license?
15 A. I was working on it at the time.
16 Q. Did you get a pilot's license?
17 A. No, too many plane crashes and that made me
18 decide not to fly anymore.
19 Q. You were in two plane crashes?
20 A. No. There were a lot of plane crashes.
21 Q. There were plane crashes?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. All right. As a road trooper you were assigned
24 a vehicle, I take it?
25 A. Yes.
28
1 Q. In the Kansas Highway Patrol, do road troopers
2 have partners?
3 A. No.
4 Q. You had a vehicle yourself and you had road
5 patrol duties, is that right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. You enforce the laws of Kansas on the highways
8 of Kansas, is that a general description of your
9 duties?
10 A. We enforce the laws of the State of Kansas.
11 Q. Most of your work was on the highways, on the
12 state and federal highways of Kansas?
13 A. The majority of it is.
14 Q. What kinds of laws were you most involved in
15 enforcing?
16 A. I worked in a wide range. I never really
17 concentrated just on one.
18 Q. Did you have some discretion in what you did as
19 a road trooper?
20 A. Yes, sir.
21 Q. Among your responsibilities would be enforcing
22 the traffic laws, I take it?
23 A. Yes, sir.
24 Q. That was some part of your time?
25 A. Yes.
29
1 Q. I guess that was always a part of your time,
2 correct?
3 A. That's correct.
4 Q. Part of your responsibilities would be assisting
5 persons in distress?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Victims of accidents and so forth?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Vehicular malfunctions and so forth?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. What other duties did you have or take upon
12 yourself? We talked about enforcing the traffic
13 laws and assisting persons in distress, what
14 other kinds of activities do you customarily
15 perform?
16 A. Criminal.
17 Q. Criminal investigations?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. What kinds of criminal acts would it frequently
20 be, drug transportation, would that be one?
21 A. Drugs.
22 Q. What other kinds of criminal activities would
23 you customarily find yourself involved in?
24 A. Thefts.
25 Q. Thefts from?
30
1 A. Deprivation of gasoline or services along the
2 interstate, or stolen transportation.
3 Q. Stolen vehicles, cars, trucks?
4 A. Transportation, yes.
5 Q. What else?
6 A. That is it.
7 Q. In the course of these activities you would
8 locate and interview witnesses, I take it?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Write reports?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Make arrests?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Testify in court?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. How long were you in aircraft training?
17 A. I started on my pilot's license when I was out
18 in Goodland and then continued it when I went to
19 Topeka.
20 Q. Did you work on your aircraft pilot's license on
21 your own, or was it part of your Highway Patrol
22 duties?
23 A. On my own.
24 Q. Did you have any aircraft duties when you were
25 in Topeka?
31
1 A. I was assigned the aircraft crew.
2 Q. You flew in aircraft with others?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. How long did do you that?
5 A. I think a couple of months, probably.
6 Q. Did that include spotting speeders on the
7 highway?
8 A. Yes, sir.
9 Q. Assisting and following suspicious vehicles from
10 the air?
11 A. Yes, sir.
12 Q. What else were your aircraft duties?
13 A. That was it.
14 Q. Those two?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Were you a spotter when you were in the plane?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Then you went to Wichita as a trooper and were
19 promoted to sergeant, is that right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. How would you describe the change in duties
22 between the duties of a trooper as compared to
23 the duties of a sergeant?
24 A. Sergeant is first line supervision.
25 Q. In Wichita how many troopers did you supervise?
32
1 A. None.
2 Q. Did you have any first line supervision
3 responsibilities in Wichita?
4 A. No.
5 Q. When you were promoted as a sergeant you
6 transferred to Kansas City?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Explain what your duties were as a sergeant in
9 Wichita.
10 A. I was assigned to the breath alcohol unit for
11 eight years.
12 Q. Did you have first line supervision
13 responsibility in the breath alcohol unit?
14 A. For a very short time.
15 Q. What did that consist of, for that very short
16 time?
17 A. Three troopers.
18 Q. What were their responsibilities?
19 A. Same as my teaching assignments, also. That was
20 it.
21 Q. Teaching what?
22 A. We taught throughout the state for standardized
23 field sobriety, also drug recognition. And then
24 also Intoxilyzer 5000, which is a breath
25 instrument.
33
1 Q. How long did this last?
2 A. About eight years.
3 Q. For eight years you travelled around the state
4 teaching these three topics, is that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Teaching other Highway Patrol employees and
7 local law enforcement?
8 A. And judges, and defense attorneys and
9 prosecution attorneys.
10 Q. During a period of this time you supervised
11 three other troopers?
12 A. As I stated earlier, a very short time.
13 Q. How did that change? What brought about that
14 change?
15 A. A lieutenant that I had. He wanted to run
16 everything.
17 Q. So he assigned those three troopers to himself?
18 A. No, we were all in the unit together, and that
19 he did all the evaluations.
20 Q. You had no evaluative or supervisory
21 responsibilities?
22 A. Right. The reason is we were spread throughout
23 the state.
24 Q. At the end of that eight years, is that when you
25 moved to Kansas City?
34
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And you were a sergeant here in Kansas City?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Do you supervise other troopers here?
5 A. Yes, I do.
6 Q. How many?
7 A. 12.
8 Q. Are they all road troopers?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Do you have road responsibilities yourself?
11 A. Not per se.
12 Q. What does a typical day on duty for you consist
13 of in your sergeant capacity?
14 A. It varies.
15 Q. What are some of the things you may be doing as
16 a sergeant?
17 A. It would be road duty, just like my 12 troopers
18 do. And in addition, check their paperwork, and
19 do the evaluations.
20 Q. Do each of your troopers get evaluated once a
21 year or twice?
22 A. When they come off probation, yes.
23 Q. While they are on probation how often are they
24 evaluated?
25 A. They are evaluated daily by a field training
35
1 officer, and then I reviewed it.
2 Q. Do you have any troopers under your supervision
3 now who are on probation?
4 A. No.
5 Q. When did you last have a trooper on probation
6 under your supervision?
7 A. I believe May.
8 Q. What do your job duties as sergeant in the
9 Kansas City area consist of other than road
10 duty, checking the paperwork of other troopers,
11 and evaluating other troopers?
12 A. First line supervisor.
13 Q. What does that consist of, what do you do as a
14 first line supervisor?
15 A. If something occurs I will be contacted, if I am
16 the sergeant that is on duty.
17 Q. How big is the Kansas City area that you are
18 assigned to, what is your geographic
19 responsibility?
20 A. Troop A consists of four counties, Leavenworth,
21 Wyandotte, Johnson and Miami County. And I have
22 troopers assigned in all four counties.
23 Q. How many sergeant are there in Troop A?
24 A. We have four sergeants.
25 Q. At least one is always on duty?
36
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Generally 12 troopers are on duty at any given
3 time?
4 A. No.
5 Q. How many?
6 A. It varies.
7 Q. From?
8 A. From training, state fair, sick, family leave.
9 Q. A maximum of 12 on duty at any one time?
10 A. If I am lucky.
11 Q. When you said your first line supervisory duty
12 would be called upon if something occurs in the
13 area, that would be a major event requiring the
14 assistance of the Highway Patrol?
15 A. Yes, I would be contacted. If my lieutenant was
16 not on duty, then I would be contacted.
17 Q. You would supervise the work of how many ever of
18 your troopers were assigned to this major
19 incident as well?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. How often does something like that occur?
22 A. Not very often.
23 Q. Couple times a year?
24 A. I need a clarification of something really
25 major.
37
1 Q. Sure. I am talking about when -- you said when
2 something occurs that requires your first line
3 supervisory activity, how often does that
4 something occur?
5 A. It varies. We can have requests from other
6 agencies to help set up perimeters if they are
7 looking for a suspect, and I have to assign
8 people into the area.
9 If we have a real major accident, we
10 will assist other agencies and they will go
11 through me to assign one of my officers if it's
12 not on a state or federal highway.
13 Q. If it's on a state or federal highway your
14 troopers would be in charge of providing
15 security?
16 A. Yes, sir.
17 Q. When you are on duty, do you normally work out
18 of an office?
19 A. I have an office, but my car is my office.
20 Q. When you are on duty you are mostly in your car?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. When you were first employed by the Kansas
23 Highway Patrol, did you participate in training?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. How long was the training?
38
1 A. I am thinking it was 16 weeks.
2 Q. Does the Kansas Highway Patrol have a trooper
3 school?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Where is that located?
6 A. Salina, Kansas.
7 Q. What is the name of this school? I call it
8 trooper school, but I don't know what it is.
9 A. Kansas Highway Patrol Training Academy.
10 Q. After the training academy, how long were you on
11 probation?
12 A. The day I was hired I was on one-year probation.
13 Q. So you went off probation after one year from
14 your date of hire?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. That's customary?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. As best as you can recall, what did the training
19 academy consist of, what topics?
20 A. It was 23 years ago, and I cannot recall all of
21 topics. It dealt with police -- what I am doing
22 now.
23 Q. What you are doing now as a Highway Patrol
24 officer?
25 A. Yes, sir.
39
1 Q. Before you began working part-time for
2 Dillard's, did you work part-time for any other
3 employer?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Dillard's is your first part-time employment?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. What is your rate of pay? Are you paid by the
8 hour?
9 A. $15 an hour.
10 Q. Who hired you at Dillard's?
11 A. Marvie Dirks.
12 Q. How did you learn about the job opportunity at
13 Dillard's?
14 A. From a security employee.
15 Q. Who was that?
16 A. Al Sanchez.
17 Q. He is a Highway Patrol trooper?
18 A. Yes, he is. He is a master trooper.
19 Q. He is a what?
20 A. Master Trooper.
21 Q. What does that mean?
22 A. We have ranks. We have Trooper 1, 2, and then
23 we have a master trooper, and then a sergeant.
24 Q. Do you know about how long he has been with the
25 Highway Patrol?
40
1 A. Since 1981.
2 Q. Is he still working at Dillard's as a security
3 officer?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. He told you that there was an opening at
6 Dillard's?
7 A. Correct.
8 Q. And you contacted Marvie Dirks?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. What did the application process consist of,
11 interview?
12 A. Yes, sir.
13 Q. Anything else?
14 A. No.
15 Q. How long did the interview last?
16 A. I think I was there that day for a total of
17 three hours.
18 Q. Did you start with an interview with Marvie
19 Dirks?
20 A. Yes, sir.
21 Q. How long did that last?
22 A. I do not recall.
23 Q. What did you do after the interview with Marvie
24 Dirks?
25 A. I met a security officer, and we visited for a
41
1 while, and he was showing me around.
2 Q. Did Marvie Dirks hire you at the end of the
3 interview?
4 A. Yes, sir.
5 Q. Offered you the job and you accepted?
6 A. Yes, sir.
7 Q. Did she introduce you to the security officer?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Do you know who that was?
10 A. Darrell Haynes.
11 Q. How do you spell Haynes?
12 A. H-a-y-n-e-s.
13 Q. Is he still a security officer at Dillard's?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Does he hold any other law enforcement
16 responsibilities, job?
17 A. He works for a school district.
18 Q. When you met Darrell Haynes, what did he do?
19 You say he showed you around?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. What did that consist of?
22 A. Showing me where their security cameras were
23 located, high theft areas, exit doors,
24 management executive offices.
25 Q. This was a walking tour?
42
1 A. Yes, sir.
2 Q. After the walking tour, what did you do next?
3 A. I departed Dillard's.
4 Q. Do you recall what month it was that you started
5 at Dillard's?
6 A. No.
7 Q. It was about two years ago?
8 A. I would say over two years.
9 Q. Was it in the summertime?
10 A. I believe it was.
11 Q. Would you believe it would have been the summer
12 of 1995?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. On this day that you were interviewed by Marvie
15 Dirks, offered the job, and Darrell Haynes gave
16 you this walking tour, were you given any
17 documents?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. What documents?
20 A. Marvie Dirks handed me documents outlining
21 responsibilities, high theft areas.
22 Q. Anything else?
23 A. I can't recall besides that.
24 Q. Then when did you next report to Dillard's?
25 A. I can't recall.
43
1 Q. Within a few days?
2 A. I can't recall.
3 Q. Within a week?
4 A. I don't know.
5 Q. Would it have been as long and a month?
6 A. I don't know.
7 Q. Do you think it may have been as long as a month
8 before you showed up to begin working?
9 A. I don't know.
10 Q. What did you do the next time you came to
11 Dillard's?
12 A. Worked with another officer.
13 Q. Do you know who that was?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Do you recall approximately how long that
16 occasion lasted, how many hours?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Was it more than one hour?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Less than ten hours?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. More than three hours?
23 A. I don't know.
24 Q. During however long you were with this other
25 officer on this next occasion, were you with
44
1 that officer virtually the whole time?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Did that continue for other times after you --
4 A. (Witness nods head.)
5 Q. Is your answer yes?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. How many additional times did you work with
8 another officer when you reported to work at
9 Dillard's?
10 A. I can't recall.
11 Q. Was it more than one or two more times?
12 A. I don't know.
13 Q. Could it have been as many as four or five more
14 times?
15 A. I don't know.
16 Q. What other training was provided to you by
17 Dillard's for your security position?
18 A. Just on-the-job training.
19 Q. From Darrell Haynes and other security officers?
20 A. Yes, sir.
21 Q. Was your title at Dillard's security officer?
22 A. Yes, sir.
23 Q. Is it still security officer?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Since you began working at Dillard's have you
45
1 received any formal training in security work
2 from Dillard's other than the on-the-job
3 training you referred to?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Do you recall approximately when it was that you
6 first worked a shift at Dillard's on your own?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Do you know if it was within a week of first
9 beginning your work at Dillard's?
10 A. I have no idea.
11 Q. From approximately how many Dillard's security
12 officers did you receive on-the-job training?
13 A. I have no idea.
14 Q. More than one?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. As many as three?
17 (Discussion off the record.)
18 (Recess.)
19 (Wilson Deposition Exhibits Nos. 1
20 through 4 were marked for identification.)
21 (The preceding three questions and
22 answers were read by the reporter.)
23 Q. (By Mr. Benson) Do you recall the questions
24 now?
25 A. Yes, I do.
46
1 Q. Did you receive on-the-job training from as many
2 as three Dillard's security officers?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. More than three?
5 A. It could be.
6 Q. More than five?
7 A. It could be.
8 Q. Who were the security officers you recall
9 receiving training from beside Darrell Haynes?
10 A. I cannot recall specifically.
11 Q. You can't recall any names other than Darrell
12 Haynes, is that correct?
13 A. No, correct. Because I was new at the time.
14 Q. Are any of the security officers at Dillard's
15 from whom you received on-the-job training still
16 employed as security officers at Dillard's?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. How many?
19 A. Boy, I cannot recall how many.
20 Q. Which ones that you can recall are still
21 employed at Dillard's?
22 A. Barry Martens.
23 Q. Any others?
24 A. No, I cannot recall their names.
25 Q. Did you receive on the job training from Barry
47
1 Martens?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. What did that consist of?
4 A. As with Mr. Haynes.
5 Q. Walking around and doing your duties together?
6 A. Yes, sir.
7 Q. On how many occasions did you spend a shift with
8 Barry Martens?
9 A. I cannot recall how long it was.
10 Q. More than one?
11 A. I cannot recall.
12 MS. KOCH: Mr. Wilson was telling me
13 when we stepped outside that there was something
14 else he thought was responsive to one of your
15 questions on training that he had not said, and
16 I told him if you didn't ask the question
17 specifically on it to go ahead --
18 A. I went in on my own time without getting paid to
19 be around the other officers.
20 Q. (By Mr. Benson) On how many occasions?
21 A. I cannot recall.
22 Q. More than once?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. More than three times?
25 A. I can't recall.
48
1 Q. What other officers did you spend your own time
2 being around?
3 A. I can't recall their names.
4 Q. Did you do this in the first few weeks of your
5 employment at Dillard's?
6 A. Probably.
7 Q. When you were hired at Dillard's did someone
8 explain your duties to you?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Who was that?
11 A. Marvie Dirks.
12 Q. What did she tell you your duties were?
13 A. As I stated earlier, on the interview session,
14 that is when she provided the documents that I
15 stated earlier.
16 Q. And was her explanation of your duties the
17 providing of documents, or did she verbally
18 explain to you what your duties were?
19 A. She did both.
20 Q. What did she say, what did she verbally explain
21 your duties as consisting of?
22 A. She went over the policy and procedure that she
23 had in front of her, she read it out loud, line
24 by line, while I read along.
25 Q. I am going to show you what's been marked as
49
1 Wilson Deposition Exhibit 1. Is that a copy of
2 the document you are referring to?
3 A. I don't know. I can't recall if this was the
4 one.
5 Q. Have you seen what is Deposition Exhibit 1
6 before?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. What is your understanding as to what that
9 document is?
10 A. It's the rules and procedures for security
11 personnel.
12 Q. When did you first see that document?
13 A. The day that I was interviewed.
14 Q. I show you what has been marked Wilson
15 Deposition Exhibit 2, do you recognize that
16 document?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. What is it?
19 A. It's objectives for security officers at
20 Dillard's Oak Park.
21 Q. When did you first see that document?
22 A. I don't know if I have seen -- I have seen one
23 like this. I don't know when, where, what time,
24 date.
25 Q. Did you see a document like that when you were
50
1 first hired?
2 A. Yes, and I would have to say that on the first
3 one you handed me also on Document No. 1. I
4 have seen something similar to that, and I don't
5 know exactly which one it was on the date of my
6 interview.
7 Q. Are there more than one Dillard's documents
8 entitled rules and procedures for security
9 personnel?
10 A. I have no idea.
11 Q. Have you ever seen more than one? Have you ever
12 seen two documents entitled rules and procedures
13 for security personnel?
14 A. I see that on my review.
15 Q. On your annual review?
16 A. Yes, sir.
17 Q. It says rules and procedure for security
18 personnel?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Or one is attached? When you say you see that
21 on my evaluation, what do you mean, what do you
22 see?
23 A. Personnel evaluation like I had in my interview
24 session with Marvie Dirks.
25 Q. When you have such a personnel evaluation, what
51
1 do you see?
2 A. Documents to that nature.
3 Q. Entitled rules and procedures for security
4 personnel?
5 A. Yes, sir.
6 Q. Do you know whether or not Dillard's has more
7 than one rules and procedures for security
8 personnel?
9 A. I do not know.
10 Q. Do you know whether Dillard's has more than one
11 objectives for security officers at Dillard's
12 Oak Park?
13 A. I have no idea.
14 Q. What other documents did Marvie Dirks give you
15 during the interview?
16 A. I can't recall.
17 Q. Any other documents that explained your duties
18 or your responsibilities?
19 A. I can't recall all the documentation.
20 Q. What is your understanding as to what your
21 duties and responsibilities consist of?
22 A. To provide security.
23 Q. Is that it?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. What is your understanding of what providing
52
1 security consists of?
2 A. It can be from assisting the person who has
3 fallen down the steps, lost child, assisting
4 someone to find their vehicle in the parking
5 lot that is lost, to assist in emergency
6 situations, watch people, apprehend shoplifters.
7 Q. What else do you understand your duty of
8 providing security to consist of?
9 A. I believe I explained it.
10 Q. You think that's it, you can't think of any more
11 at this time?
12 A. No, I can't recall.
13 Q. Have those always been your duties as a security
14 officer at Dillard's?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Have your responsibilities as a security officer
17 at Dillard's changed over the time that you were
18 first hired?
19 A. No.
20 Q. How often is your performance evaluated at
21 Dillard's?
22 A. I believe it's every six months.
23 Q. Who evaluates you?
24 A. Marvie Dirks.
25 Q. Is she your immediate supervisor at Dillard's?
53
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Are there any benefits that flow to you as a
3 result of a favorable evaluation at Dillard's?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Other than continued employment, I guess?
6 A. No.
7 Q. As a result of favorable evaluations are you
8 considered for pay increases?
9 A. I have no idea.
10 Q. Have you received a pay increase since you have
11 been at Dillard's?
12 A. No.
13 Q. As a result of favorable evaluations, are you
14 called more often for scheduling assignments?
15 A. No.
16 Q. As a result of favorable evaluations, are you
17 given more favorable scheduling assignment
18 options?
19 A. I have no idea.
20 Q. Do you know whether Dillard's has any way of
21 measuring your production or your job
22 fulfillment at Dillard's?
23 A. I have no idea.
24 Q. Do you know whether Dillard's keeps track of
25 things like the number of apprehensions by a
54
1 security officer?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Do you know, are you given that data on a
4 regular basis about how many apprehensions you
5 have made?
6 A. Never.
7 Q. Do you know whether or not Dillard's keeps track
8 of merchandise recovered by each security
9 officer?
10 A. I have no idea.
11 Q. Are you ever --
12 A. Oh, I will explain that. It's in our report,
13 any items that we recover is in a written
14 report.
15 Q. You do a written report for every incident in
16 which you are involved, is that correct?
17 MS. KOCH: Object to the form of
18 question to the extent incident is vague.
19 MR. BENSON: I will withdraw that
20 question for now.
21 Q. (By Mr. Benson) Whenever you write an incident
22 report, if it involved recovering merchandise,
23 you would put that in the report, is that
24 correct?
25 A. Yes.
55
1 Q. Do you know whether or not Dillard's compiles
2 merchandise recovery data from those incident
3 reports?
4 A. I don't know.
5 Q. Do you know whether Dillard's in any way keeps
6 track of the merchandise, the amount or the
7 value of the merchandise that is recovered by
8 its security officers?
9 A. Just from our reports, that is as far as I know.
10 Q. You don't know what is done with the data in
11 your reports?
12 A. No, sir.
13 Q. What is your understanding as to how your job
14 performance is measured at Dillard's?
15 A. By my twice a year evaluation.
16 Q. What does that consist of, what is Dillard's
17 looking for in order to give you a favorable
18 evaluation?
19 A. For an evaluation, I don't know on favorable,
20 but my evaluation consists of if I answer my
21 calls, if I show up for work, and I'm not just
22 standing around.
23 Q. By show up for work, you mean for an assigned
24 schedule?
25 A. Yes, sir.
56
1 Q. If you accept an assignment, agree to be there,
2 you are evaluated on whether or not you show up?
3 A. Yes, sir.
4 Q. And by answer calls, do you mean when you are
5 called or paged?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. While you are on duty at Dillard's?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Are those usually radio calls?
10 A. It can be -- no, intercom.
11 Q. Do you wear a radio while you are on duty?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. What form of calls do you receive, both radio
14 and intercom?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. So you are evaluated on whether or not you
17 respond to the calls that are placed to you?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Thirdly, you said whether or not you are not
20 just standing around. What does that mean?
21 A. That I'm not standing just talking to
22 associates. I am on the floor letting the
23 associates know that there is a security person
24 on the floor, and I am always on the move.
25 Q. Who would make the observation about whether or
57
1 not you are always on the move as opposed to
2 just standing around?
3 A. Any associate or assistant sales manager, Marvie
4 Dirks, Mr. Rodgers.
5 Q. For your evaluation, who makes those
6 observations?
7 A. I have no idea.
8 Q. What else does your evaluation consist of
9 besides whether you show up, whether you answer
10 calls, and whether you are not just standing
11 around?
12 A. I have no idea.
13 Q. On this day in which the event that gave rise to
14 this lawsuit occurred, which I think we have
15 agreed was April 5th, 1996, do you recall the
16 incident that we are concerned about?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. On that day, do you recall approximately what
19 time you reported for duty at Dillard's?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Do you recall approximately how long you had
22 been on duty before you first observed the two
23 women who were later identified as Hampton and
24 Cooper?
25 A. No.
58
1 Q. Do you recall where you were when you first saw
2 them?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Where were you?
5 A. I was on the second level of the south Dillard's
6 store passing through the infants section on the
7 walkway.
8 Q. Where were you headed?
9 A. I was just walking the floor.
10 Q. What attracted your attention?
11 A. A baby stroller.
12 Q. Was there a baby in the baby stroller?
13 A. I don't recall.
14 Q. What about the baby stroller attracted your
15 attention?
16 A. I just watch people in the store when they have
17 baby strollers.
18 Q. Is the baby stroller suspicious, in your view?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Why is that?
21 A. People have been apprehended from concealing
22 items in baby strollers inside Dillard's.
23 MR. BENSON: Karen Cain just arrived.
24 Good morning, Karen.
25 Q. (By Mr. Benson) Have you ever apprehended
59
1 anyone at Dillard's who was concealing items of
2 Dillard's merchandise in a baby stroller?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Do you consider all people with baby strollers
5 to be potential shoplifters?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. When you noticed the baby stroller, what did you
8 do?
9 A. I stopped in the boys section and started
10 watching.
11 Q. How many people were you watching?
12 A. I was watching a young black female and an older
13 black female with small children.
14 Q. How many small children?
15 A. I think I put in my report two small children,
16 but I cannot give you the exact.
17 Q. Approximately how old were the two small
18 children?
19 A. I don't know.
20 Q. Give me your best estimate as to the range of
21 age for the younger of the two?
22 A. Not having kids, I don't know.
23 Q. How about the older of the two, approximately
24 what age range?
25 A. I don't know.
60
1 Q. Were either of the children so young as to not
2 be able to walk?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Both of the children could walk?
5 A. I don't recall.
6 Q. Did the youngest child require assistance
7 walking because of it's young age?
8 A. I can't recall.
9 Q. Do you recall what the weather was like on this
10 day?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Do you recall whether other shoppers were
13 wearing coats or jackets because of the weather?
14 A. No, I can't recall.
15 Q. Was anyone else in the infants section besides
16 the two women and the two children that you
17 observed?
18 A. I don't recall, because I was just watching
19 them.
20 Q. Was there a sales associate?
21 A. There were associates around, but not where I
22 was watching the two ladies.
23 Q. Were there sales associates in the infants
24 section?
25 A. I can't recall.
61
1 Q. How big is the infants section, give it's
2 approximate measurement in feet or yards.
3 A. It's weird shaped. I don't know their layout on
4 the square footage.
5 Q. Approximately how many counters or racks in the
6 infant section?
7 A. I have no idea.
8 Q. More than 30?
9 A. I have no idea.
10 Q. More than five?
11 A. There are more than five.
12 Q. More than ten?
13 A. I don't know what they have.
14 Q. You don't recall how many sales associates were
15 in the infant section at the time?
16 A. No, I do not.
17 Q. There was at least one?
18 A. I don't know.
19 Q. Customarily is there a sales associates assigned
20 to the infant section?
21 A. I don't know their assignments.
22 Q. Was this infant section separated from other
23 sections by pedestrian walk areas?
24 A. Where I was watching them the walkway was in
25 between the two escalators, the third floor
62
1 coming down, and then there is a walkway and
2 then they were immediately in front of the
3 walkway.
4 Q. They were on one side of the walkway and you
5 were on the other side?
6 A. Yes, sir.
7 Q. You were in the boys section they were in the
8 infant section?
9 A. Yes, sir.
10 Q. To one side as you looked was the escalators, is
11 that right?
12 A. No, they would have been on my right.
13 Q. The escalators were on your right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. The infant section was in front of you where you
16 were looking?
17 A. Directly across from me.
18 Q. What was to your left?
19 A. Boys clothes in that section.
20 Q. Boys was to your left and behind you, or in the
21 area where you were standing?
22 A. Yes, sir.
23 Q. You don't recall seeing any sales associates at
24 all around, you just don't recall whether there
25 were any or not, is that correct?
63
1 A. No, there were some.
2 Q. In the infant section?
3 A. No, I don't recall in the infant section.
4 Q. You don't recall whether there were other
5 customers in the infant section?
6 A. No, I do not.
7 Q. How long did you observe the two females with
8 the two children?
9 A. I have to refresh my memory by looking at my
10 report.
11 Q. I show you what's been marked as Deposition
12 Exhibit 3 and ask you if that is a copy of your
13 report?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Tell you what, this might be a good time on this
16 Exhibit 3, do you see the part that says
17 "narrative"? Do you see where the narrative
18 begins, it says the word "narrative." do you see
19 that?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Would you just out loud read the first sentence
22 and, where there is an abbreviation use the
23 word, like R/O, I take it, is reporting officer?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Would you read that as that reporting officer?
64
1 A. "Reporting officer was watching two black
2 females with two kids and a stroller in the
3 children's Polo by the escalator."
4 Q. Now, if you would continue reading at a slow
5 pace.
6 A. I am sorry.
7 Q. No, you did fine. But there is a tendency to
8 speed up when you are reading, because there may
9 be some question about what was written. You
10 are familiar with your handwriting. If you
11 would read that slowly, and if you get going too
12 fast the court reporter will stop you.
13 A. Go ahead?
14 Q. Yes, continue, please.
15 A. "The black female that had on a dark leather
16 coat on had one pair of dark infant pants on a
17 hanger. The other black female left the area
18 with the children. I continued to watch the
19 black female with the dark leather coat. She
20 would stop walking, kept looking around toward
21 the ceiling and looking around as if to see if
22 someone was watching her. I noticed she had
23 another item that was dark and she rolled it up
24 and kept it in her left-hand. She kept going
25 back to the Polo section, picked up some khaki
65
1 pants, started looking around again to see if
2 someone was watching. She put down the pants,
3 the khaki, still had the dark colored pants on
4 the hanger. I watched her for about 15 minutes
5 by herself. The other black female with the
6 kids showed back up. All the people in the
7 group started walking in the same area. The one
8 I had been watching bent down and picked up one
9 of the children. I noticed the dark object she
10 had rolled up was still in her left hand and was
11 now under the infant she picked up. I then
12 stopped Pam Fitzgerel to watch the females. She
13 watched them go into an open dressing room.
14 Fitzgerel came up to me and said she observed
15 the black female with the coat on put something
16 under her coat. I asked Fitzgerel again if she
17 was positive what she saw, and she again stated
18 she observed the black female of putting
19 something under her coat.
20 "Both came out of the dressing room
21 and walked over --" This copy I can't read.
22 Q. Is it perhaps "into"?
23 A. If we want to agree on that, "into." I can't
24 read it.
25 MS. KOCH: That would be my guess. My
66
1 copy might be a little bit better than yours.
2 A. Yes, it is. "-- into another department and
3 purchased some items. Fitzgerel checked the
4 dressing room and it was empty. The black
5 female with the dark coat had come out with an
6 empty hanger. She laid it down on some
7 clothes.
8 "I followed them to men's cosmetic and
9 stopped them before they left the store. I
10 identified myself as Dillard's security and
11 advised them that the one black female had been
12 observed placing something in her coat. The
13 black female pushing the baby stroller said they
14 had purchased some items and I asked to look
15 into the bag. Inside were three items and a
16 receipt for the items. The lady pushing the
17 stroller started raising her voice about me
18 stopping her outside of Dillard's. I told her
19 she was still inside the store, and was trying
20 to explain the situation. She was starting to
21 get louder and louder, and I asked to calm
22 down. She kept interrupting me and --" I can't
23 read the next word. "-- talked loud. I told
24 her if she wouldn't calm down I would have to
25 call Overland Park Police Department. She said
67
1 go ahead. I even asked her if she wanted to go
2 to the office to talk, and she told the other
3 female she was going to return all the items
4 because she didn't need this. And she spent
5 $10,000 here last year. She wanted to use a
6 phone. I told her a pay phone was just outside
7 the door. She then stated something about
8 customer service and I advised her it was on the
9 third floor. I watched them go into the men's
10 department, and I left the area."
11 Q. And I then left the area, right?
12 A. Okay. "The female wearing the dark coat never
13 said a word. I did not look in her purse she
14 was carrying on her shoulder."
15 Q. Then it's signed, is that T.J. Wilson?
16 A. Wilson.
17 Q. When did you write this report?
18 A. Immediately.
19 Q. Within minutes after the incident?
20 A. Yes, sir.
21 Q. To whom did you give the report?
22 A. To Marvie Dirks.
23 Q. The question that prompted this was how long did
24 you observe these two woman, and in your report
25 I believe you stated you observed them for about
68
1 about 15 minutes, is that right?
2 A. No, I stated that I watched the young female for
3 approximately 15 minutes.
4 Q. And that was in the infant section?
5 A. In the Polo section.
6 Q. Is the Polo section next to the infant section?
7 A. It's in the infant section.
8 Q. It's a subpart of the infant section?
9 A. Yes, sir.
10 Q. Did you stay in the boys section during that
11 time?
12 A. Yes, I did.
13 Q. Were you visible to her or were you concealing
14 yourself?
15 A. Concealing.
16 Q. How were you concealing yourself?
17 A. I was behind some clothes or fixtures.
18 Q. Were you moving around?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. If a person in the infant section had been
21 looking in your direction, could that person
22 have seen you from time to time as you moved
23 around?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. At any time did you crouch down or do anything
69
1 that was not normal walking around in order to
2 conceal yourself?
3 A. I can't recall.
4 Q. Did you alert anyone else that you were watching
5 a woman with a suspicious baby stroller --
6 A. No.
7 Q. -- during this 15-minute period?
8 MS. KOCH: I object to the extent you
9 are mischaracterizing what he said in the
10 report.
11 Q. (By Mr. Benson) You may answer.
12 A. I was watching the young black female for 15
13 minutes.
14 Q. And she had the baby stroller?
15 A. No.
16 Q. The baby stroller had gone -- had left with
17 someone else?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. The older of the two females had departed with
20 the stroller?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And the two children?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. So only the younger female was left?
25 A. Yes.
70
1 Q. For 15 minutes what did she do?
2 A. As I stated earlier in my report that she kept
3 looking around to see if possibly somebody was
4 watching her and she would pick up an item and
5 then look around to see if somebody was
6 watching.
7 Q. What did she do with the item after she picked
8 it up?
9 A. Well, as I stated earlier, she had one on a
10 hanger and then she had something that was
11 rolled up in her hand.
12 Q. Do you remember anything about what she did that
13 is not in your report?
14 A. I don't understand.
15 Q. This incident took place now about a year and
16 five months ago. Do you have any independent
17 recollection of what happened on this occasion
18 other than what you have written in your report?
19 A. This is refreshing my memory.
20 Q. Yes. In addition to what your report says that
21 refreshes your recollection, do you have an
22 independent memory of anything else.
23 MS. KOCH: I object to the extent your
24 question is vague. The witness has testified
25 that he remembers the incident, and to the
71
1 extent you are trying to foreclose the witness
2 from responding to any questions, I object.
3 Q. (By Mr. Benson) You may answer.
4 A. I don't recall.
5 Q. How many items of clothing during this 15
6 minutes did the younger female look at?
7 A. Numerous.
8 Q. What is your best estimate as to what numerous
9 means?
10 A. More than one.
11 Q. More than three?
12 A. More than one.
13 Q. More than five?
14 A. More than one.
15 Q. You don't recall, is that correct?
16 A. I do not recall.
17 Q. Do you know where the other members of the
18 party, the older female and the two children
19 went?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Do you recall in which direction they went?
22 A. They went out toward the cosmetic area.
23 Q. Would that have been to your left or to your
24 right?
25 A. To my right.
72
1 Q. Which direction was the escalators?
2 A. To my right.
3 Q. Do you recall whether or not they went up or
4 down an escalator?
5 A. They did not go down.
6 Q. There is not a down escalator there?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. There is?
9 A. Right there.
10 Q. Is there a up escalator there, too?
11 A. No, it's around the corner.
12 Q. Do you recall where they went? They went toward
13 cosmetics, did you see them beyond that?
14 A. No.
15 Q. As to the two children, approximately how tall
16 were the two children?
17 A. I don't have a height, I don't recall.
18 Q. Were both of them shorter, say, than the waist
19 of the younger female?
20 A. I believe one was.
21 Q. And what about the second one, the other one?
22 A. I don't recall.
23 Q. Do you recall whether that one was shorter than
24 the waist, approximately as tall as the waist of
25 the younger female, or taller than the waist?
73
1 A. I don't recall.
2 Q. Do you recall whether either of children were as
3 tall as the shoulder of the younger female?
4 A. I don't believe there was one.
5 Q. Do you recall whether the children were boys or
6 girls?
7 A. No, I do not.
8 Q. Do you recall how either of the children were
9 dressed, what they were wearing?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Were they wearing pants or dresses?
12 A. I don't recall.
13 Q. Were they wearing a jumpsuit or a combination
14 outfit?
15 A. I don't recall.
16 Q. Did they have coats or jackets, the children?
17 A. I don't recall.
18 Q. As to the older of the two women, the one who
19 left, do you recall how she was dressed?
20 A. I don't recall.
21 Q. Do you recall whether she was wearing pants or a
22 dress?
23 A. I do not recall.
24 Q. Do you recall what color her clothing was?
25 A. No.
74
1 Q. Do you recall whether her hair was short or
2 long?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Do you recall whether she was wearing any
5 jewelry?
6 A. I do not recall.
7 Q. Do you recall whether she was wearing a coat or
8 jacket?
9 A. I do not recall.
10 Q. Do you recall anything about her other than that
11 she was a black female?
12 A. That she was pushing a baby stroller and had
13 some children with her.
14 Q. Do you recall anything about her appearance
15 other than that she was black?
16 A. No.
17 Q. The younger of the two females, the one who
18 stayed in the infant section, how was she
19 dressed?
20 A. She had a black coat on, a dark leather coat.
21 Q. Was this black coat waist length or thigh length
22 or knee or how long?
23 A. I don't recall the length.
24 Q. Did this black leather coat have a belt on it,
25 do you recall?
75
1 A. I do not recall.
2 Q. Was it single breasted or double breasted?
3 A. I do not recall.
4 Q. Did it have pockets?
5 A. I do not recall.
6 Q. Was the younger female wearing the black leather
7 coat the whole time?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Did you ever see her take it off?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Did this black leather coat have a collar?
12 A. I do not recall.
13 Q. Would you describe it as a car coat or a rain
14 coat style?
15 A. Just a dark leather coat.
16 Q. Do you recall whether this younger female
17 wearing the black leather coat was wearing pants
18 or a dress?
19 A. I do not recall.
20 Q. Whether she was wearing shoes or boots?
21 A. I do not recall.
22 Q. Tennis shoes?
23 A. I do not recall.
24 Q. Do you recall what she was wearing in terms of a
25 shirt or blouse?
76
1 A. No.
2 Q. Do you recall anything about her appearance
3 other than that she was a black female wearing a
4 black leather coat?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Do you recall whether her hair was short or
7 long?
8 A. I do not recall.
9 Q. Whether she was wearing jewelry?
10 A. I do not recall.
11 Q. When the stroller caught your attention as you
12 were walking through, where did you say you were
13 headed?
14 A. I was walking the store.
15 Q. In which direction were you headed?
16 A. I was walking north.
17 Q. Were you walking toward a particular section?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Just walking?
20 A. Yes, sir.
21 Q. When the stroller caught your attention, how
22 long after you noticed the stroller did the
23 older woman and the two children leave the
24 infant section?
25 A. It wasn't immediate.
77
1 Q. Did you watch them for 30 seconds, a minute and
2 a half, something like that, before the older
3 woman and the two children left the section?
4 A. It was longer than that.
5 Q. About how long was it?
6 A. It was longer than a minute and a half. I don't
7 recall the exact time on it.
8 Q. Was it as long as four or five minutes?
9 A. It could be.
10 Q. After the woman in the stroller and the two
11 children left, that's when you then watched the
12 younger female for about 15 minutes, is that
13 correct?
14 A. Correct.
15 Q. So your entire observation period from the time
16 you saw the stroller until the end of the
17 15-minute observation period could have been as
18 long as about 20 minutes?
19 A. It could.
20 Q. But you know it was more than 16 1/2 minutes?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Could it have been longer than 20 minutes, or is
23 it probable that it was longer than 20 minutes?
24 A. I don't recall.
25 Q. During this period that was from a minute and a
78
1 half to about five minutes that you observed all
2 four of the people and the stroller in the
3 infant section, what were they doing, what were
4 the adults doing?
5 A. Looking at clothes.
6 Q. Holding them up to the children?
7 A. No.
8 Q. What were they doing as they looked at the
9 clothes, were they taking them off racks,
10 putting them back on?
11 A. They were looking at clothes, and the young
12 black female was looking around to see if
13 somebody was watching.
14 Q. You don't know what was in her mind at that
15 time, do you?
16 A. No.
17 Q. So you don't know why she was looking around?
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. While she was looking around, the older black
20 female was looking at clothes?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. The younger black female was not looking at
23 clothes?
24 A. She would look at clothes briefly, and then
25 start looking around.
79
1 Q. When she looked at clothes how did she look at
2 clothes, what did she do to look at clothes?
3 A. She picked an item up, glanced at it, hold it in
4 her hand, and looked around and it appeared to
5 me to see if somebody was watching.
6 Q. And then put the item back down?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. During this period that lasted a minute and a
9 half to five minutes, while the four were there
10 with the stroller, about how many items of
11 clothing did the older black female look at?
12 A. I don't recall.
13 Q. More than four or five?
14 A. I don't recall.
15 Q. Do you know how many the younger black female
16 looked at?
17 A. No.
18 Q. More than four or five items?
19 A. I don't recall.
20 Q. Do you recall what items of clothing they looked
21 at?
22 A. As I stated in my report earlier, the young
23 female had a dark colored pants on a hanger, and
24 then picked up some khaki pants.
25 Q. The third line of your narrative that begins,
80
1 "That had on a dark leather coat," do you see
2 that?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Then it goes on to read, "That had on a dark
5 leather coat on, and had one pair of dark infant
6 pants."
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Is that what it reads?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Now the word "dark," is that in your
11 handwriting, toward the end of that third line?
12 A. It appears to be my handwriting.
13 Q. It appears to have been added after you wrote
14 the rest of it, do you see that?
15 A. I could have put it in while I was writing that
16 line.
17 Q. You wrote the line and went back and decided you
18 better add the word "dark?"
19 A. No. I probably made a correction while I was
20 writing it.
21 Q. Do you recall making this correction?
22 A. I don't recall.
23 Q. Is it in your handwriting?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Is it your testimony that the word "dark" was
81
1 written in by you by the time you had completed
2 and signed this report?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. When you say she had a pair of dark infant pants
5 on a hanger, she was holding it by the hanger?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. This was the older of the two women, is that
8 right, that you are referring to here?
9 A. No.
10 Q. This is the younger of the two?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. She had this one item of clothing, while the
13 others were still there, is that correct? This
14 one dark pair of infant pants on a hanger you
15 are referring to was while the older woman and
16 the two children were still there, is that
17 correct?
18 A. I don't recall if she was holding it.
19 Q. You say she had one pair of black infant pants
20 on a hanger. What do you mean by "had?"
21 A. In her possession.
22 Q. She had it in her possession?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Do you recall how she had it in her possession?
25 A. On a hanger.
82
1 Q. Do you recall how the hanger and pants were in
2 her possession, was it folded over her arm, was
3 she holding it?
4 A. Holding it.
5 Q. Holding the hanger?
6 A. Yes, sir.
7 Q. She was holding -- the younger female was
8 holding the hanger with one pair of dark infant
9 pants on it, while the older female and the
10 children and the stroller were still in the
11 infant section, is that correct?
12 A. I don't recall.
13 Q. Your report goes on to say, "The other black
14 female left the area with the children."
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You wrote that sentence -- that sentence comes
17 after the sentence where you say the younger
18 female had a pair of dark infant pants on a
19 hanger. So is it your best recollection that
20 the younger female had the pants on a hanger
21 while the others in her party were still in the
22 infant section?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And the other black female then left with the
25 children, and you continued to watch the female
83
1 with the black leather coat?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. That's when the 15-minute observation period
4 began when the others left, is that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. During this 15 minutes, did you notice the young
7 black female pick up and look at any other
8 merchandise other than the black pair of pants
9 on a hanger?
10 A. The khaki pants.
11 Q. Okay. Anything else that you remember?
12 A. And another item that was dark that she had
13 rolled up and she kept it in her left hand.
14 Q. Do you know what this dark rolled up item in her
15 left hand was?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Do you even know if it was Dillard's
18 merchandise?
19 A. No.
20 Q. She picked up some khaki pants. Were they on a
21 hanger?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. You believe the khaki pants to have been
24 Dillard's merchandise?
25 A. Yes.
84
1 Q. What did she do with those khaki pants?
2 A. She put down the khaki pants.
3 Q. By putting down, you mean she hung them back up
4 on the rack?
5 A. I don't know if she laid them down or hung them
6 back up, but she didn't have them any more.
7 Q. You don't recall what she did with them?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Then she still had the dark colored pants on the
10 hanger, is that correct, after she put the khaki
11 pants down?
12 A. She still had the dark colored pants on a
13 hanger.
14 Q. Now, other than the dark colored pants on a
15 hanger and the khaki pants that she picked up
16 and put down, do you recall any other items of
17 Dillard's merchandise that she handled during
18 this 15 minutes you were observing her?
19 A. She was looking at numerous clothing items.
20 Q. Numerous meaning?
21 A. More than one.
22 Q. But not necessarily more than five?
23 A. I can't recall the exact number.
24 Q. You don't recall whether -- or do you recall
25 what items of clothing she looked at, were they
85
1 pants, shirts, jackets?
2 A. No, I did not.
3 Q. During this 15 minutes she continually was
4 looking around, looking for other people, you
5 presume, or looking to see if she was watched?
6 A. She did that in addition to looking at the
7 clothes.
8 Q. During this time that she was looking around and
9 looking at the clothes, did you yourself see her
10 conceal any Dillard's merchandise on or about
11 her person or her belongings?
12 A. No.
13 Q. During this 15 minutes, how many other customers
14 came through the infant section, do you recall?
15 A. I do not recall.
16 Q. Some did, isn't that correct?
17 A. I don't recall.
18 Q. You don't recall if any customers came through?
19 A. I don't recall.
20 Q. Do you recall if there were any sales associates
21 who were in or around the infant section during
22 this 15-minute observation period?
23 A. I don't recall in the infant section.
24 Q. Do you recall whether or not the younger female
25 was helped by or consulted with a sales
86
1 associate during that 15-minute period?
2 A. She was not.
3 Q. Did a sales associates approach her and ask if
4 the younger female needed any help?
5 A. Not that I recall.
6 Q. You don't recall seeing a sales associate in the
7 infant section during that 15 minutes, is that
8 correct?
9 A. Correct.
10 Q. After the 15 minutes ended, the other female
11 with the kids came back into the infant section,
12 is that correct?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. Pushing the stroller?
15 A. Correct.
16 Q. Were either of the kids riding in the stroller?
17 A. I don't recall.
18 Q. Were they carrying any packages or Dillard's
19 sacks?
20 A. Not that I recall.
21 Q. What were they carrying when they came back?
22 A. She was pushing the baby stroller.
23 Q. Other than pushing the baby stroller, were any
24 of them carrying anything?
25 A. I believe purses.
87
1 Q. How many purses was she carrying when she came
2 back?
3 A. I do not recall.
4 Q. Did each of them have a purse, each of the two
5 black females?
6 A. I don't recall.
7 Q. Why did you mention purses, do you remember
8 seeing purses?
9 A. I think in my report that I stated when I read
10 it to you.
11 Q. In the very last line said you did not look in
12 the purse the younger one was carrying on her
13 shoulder?
14 A. Correct.
15 Q. Do you recall the older woman, when she was
16 coming back pushing the stroller whether or not
17 she had or was carrying a purse?
18 A. I do not recall.
19 Q. What do you recall as to the location of the
20 purse, if any, of the younger female during this
21 15 minutes you were observing her by herself?
22 A. On her shoulder.
23 Q. What color was it?
24 A. I do not recall.
25 Q. Do you recall if it was brown or black?
88
1 A. I do not recall.
2 Q. Light or dark?
3 A. I do not recall.
4 Q. Cloth or leather?
5 A. I do not recall.
6 Q. Large or small?
7 A. I do not recall.
8 Q. Is it bigger than your open hand?
9 A. I do not recall.
10 Q. Was it a clutch purse?
11 A. I do not recall.
12 Q. Was it a large bag?
13 A. I do not recall.
14 Q. If you don't recall, you wouldn't recognize it
15 if you saw it again, would you?
16 A. That's correct.
17 Q. Is it true that if you saw the clothes the
18 younger female was wearing you would not likely
19 recognize them again?
20 A. I would not.
21 Q. Would you recognize the black leather coat if
22 you saw it again?
23 A. No.
24 Q. When the older black female came back with the
25 two children and the stroller, did the two women
89
1 speak to each other?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Could you hear what they said?
4 A. No.
5 Q. How far away from them were you?
6 A. About 25 feet.
7 Q. Is that about how far you were away from them
8 most of the time during your observation?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Did either of them show anything to the other?
11 A. Clothing.
12 Q. Where did the clothing come from that they
13 showed?
14 A. In that section.
15 Q. They resumed looking at clothing in the infant
16 section?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. The younger black woman still had the dark pants
19 on the hanger. Did she show those to the older
20 woman?
21 A. I don't recall.
22 Q. How long did you observe the two women and the
23 children after they rejoined in the infant
24 section?
25 A. Minutes. I cannot tell you. It was a short
90
1 time.
2 Q. More than two minutes?
3 A. It could have been.
4 Q. More than five minutes?
5 A. I don't recall.
6 MS. KOCH: Excuse me. When you reach
7 a good breaking point, I need a real quick
8 break.
9 MR. BENSON: Okay.
10 (A recess was taken.)
11 Q. (By Mr. Benson) Mr. Wilson, on this occasion
12 what were you wearing?
13 A. Plain clothes.
14 Q. What did that consist of that day?
15 A. I don't remember what I had on.
16 Q. Were you wearing a tie and jacket?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Were you wearing a open neck shirt?
19 A. I don't recall what I had on.
20 Q. Tennis shoes?
21 A. I don't know.
22 Q. Do you recall what kind of pants you had on?
23 A. Jeans.
24 Q. Do you recall if you were wearing a sweater or a
25 jacket over your shirt?
91
1 A. I don't recall.
2 Q. I see you are wearing glasses. Do you
3 customarily wear glasses?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Do you ever wear contact lenses?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Are your glasses prescribed for nearsightedness
8 or farsightedness?
9 A. For reading.
10 Q. So I guess if you have to wear glasses when you
11 are reading, that means you are farsighted, and
12 you need glasses for your short distance
13 reading.
14 Were you wearing glasses at the time
15 you were observing the women in the infant
16 section on this day in question?
17 A. No.
18 Q. During this short period of time that could have
19 been from two to five minutes, did the women
20 spend any of their time minding the children or
21 keeping track of the children?
22 A. I don't recall.
23 Q. During this period of time when the women had
24 rejoined each other in the infant section, did
25 they try on any clothes while you were observing
92
1 them?
2 A. No.
3 Q. While the two women were back together in the
4 infant section, do you recall if there were
5 other customers in the infant section?
6 A. I don't recall.
7 Q. Do you recall if there were any sales associates
8 in the infant section?
9 A. I don't recall.
10 Q. Were you continuing to attempt to conceal
11 yourself in the boys section?
12 A. I was still in the boys section.
13 Q. Were you trying to conceal yourself from the two
14 women who were back together in the infant
15 section?
16 A. I don't recall.
17 Q. You had been trying to conceal yourself during
18 the 15 minutes that you watched the younger
19 woman alone, is that correct?
20 A. That was concealing off and on, because I would
21 walk around.
22 Q. So anyone in the infant section who had been
23 observing could have seen you off and on walking
24 around in the boys section?
25 A. Yes.
93
1 Q. The younger female could have seen you off and
2 on as she was being observed by you during this
3 15 minutes, is that correct?
4 MS. KOCH: Object to the question to
5 the extent it calls for speculation. You may go
6 ahead and answer.
7 A. I can't answer that for her.
8 Q. (By Mr. Benson) Was she in a position during
9 the 15 minutes you were observing her to see
10 you?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Why is that, what obscured her vision of you?
13 A. She really wasn't looking my way. She was
14 avoiding me, where I was.
15 Q. You say she was avoiding looking at you?
16 A. No. Where I was, not me in particular.
17 Q. You say it's your belief she was avoiding
18 looking at the area in which you were standing?
19 A. Where I was observing her.
20 Q. On what basis do you believe that she was
21 avoiding looking at the area from which you were
22 observing her?
23 A. I can't answer that for her.
24 Q. You just told me you thought she was avoiding
25 you, so that puts some motivation in her mind.
94
1 You don't really have any basis for that
2 motivation, do you?
3 A. No.
4 Q. All you know is -- is it your testimony now that
5 during that 15 minutes she never once looked
6 over at the boys section where you were located?
7 A. We never made eye contact.
8 Q. Did she ever look over toward the boys section
9 from which you were observing her?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You don't know whether or not she saw you?
12 A. I can't answer that for her.
13 Q. You were not, throughout this 15 minutes, trying
14 to conceal yourself from her, were you?
15 A. I was moving.
16 Q. My question is, were you trying to conceal
17 yourself from her throughout this 15 minutes
18 that you were observing her alone in the infant
19 section?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. How much of that 15 minutes were you trying to
22 conceal yourself?
23 A. I can't recall minutes.
24 Q. As much as half the time were you trying to
25 conceal yourself?
95
1 A. I pretty well stayed in that area.
2 Q. I understand you stayed in that area, but I am
3 asking you while you stayed in that area were
4 you trying to conceal yourself?
5 A. And I stated, yes.
6 Q. Were you trying to conceal yourself most of the
7 time you were there, all of the time you were
8 there, or just some of the time?
9 A. I can't recall.
10 Q. Can you recall whether or not you attempted to
11 conceal yourself for every minute of the 15
12 minutes you were there?
13 A. I can't recall.
14 Q. Are you saying you may have tried to conceal
15 yourself for the entire 15 minutes?
16 A. I can't recall.
17 Q. And you may not have tried to conceal yourself
18 at all during the 15 minutes, because you can't
19 recall, right?
20 A. No. I stated earlier to a question you asked
21 me, yes, I had concealed.
22 Q. For some part of the time of the 15 minutes?
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. You just can't remember how much of that time
25 you tried to conceal yourself?
96
1 A. Correct.
2 Q. It could have been for as little as a minute or
3 as much as the entire 15 minutes, is that
4 correct?
5 A. I don't know the exact time.
6 Q. I know you don't know the exact time. I am
7 asking for your best recollection. Within the
8 range from one minute to 15 minutes, how much
9 during that 15 minutes did you attempt to
10 conceal yourself?
11 A. I cannot recall the time.
12 Q. Is it your best judgment that you were concealed
13 more than half of that 15 minutes?
14 A. I can't recall.
15 Q. Do you have a judgment as to whether or not you
16 could have tried to conceal yourself for 13 or
17 14 minutes of the 15 minutes?
18 A. Restate the question.
19 Q. Do you have a judgment, a recollection, as to
20 whether or not you may have tried to conceal
21 yourself in the boys section for as long as 13,
22 14 or 15 minutes?
23 A. No, I can't recall.
24 Q. After the older woman and two children and the
25 stroller rejoined the younger woman for the
97
1 short period of time, which could have been
2 about two to five minutes, did you remain about
3 25 feet away from them?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Do you recall whether that period of time, the
6 two to five minute short interval, you were a
7 attempting to conceal yourself?
8 A. I don't recall.
9 Q. Do you recall whether you walked around at all
10 during that two to five minutes?
11 A. I don't recall.
12 Q. Do you recall whether or not the two women were
13 in a position to see you if they had looked
14 during that two to five minutes?
15 A. I don't recall.
16 Q. At the end of that two to five minutes, was it
17 you who departed the area?
18 A. I never departed the area.
19 Q. At the end of that two to five minutes, is that
20 when you stopped Pam Fitzgerel?
21 A. I stopped Pam Fitzgerel when all parties were
22 going to a fitting room.
23 Q. After the short interval you described when the
24 two women rejoined each other?
25 A. Yes, sir.
98
1 Q. That's the two- to five-minute period we have
2 been talking about?
3 A. Yes, sir.
4 Q. So approximately two to five minutes after the
5 older woman rejoined the younger woman, you
6 stopped Pam Fitzgerel?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. During this short interval, this two- to
9 five-minute period, you wrote in your report
10 that all the people in the group started walking
11 in the same area?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Describe just what they were doing when they
14 were walking in the same area, what were they
15 doing as they were walking?
16 A. Just walking and looking at clothes.
17 Q. Picking things up, putting them down, walking,
18 picking things up, looking?
19 A. I can't recall exactly, but walking in the area
20 looking at clothes.
21 Q. Do you recall whether or not they picked any
22 items of clothing up?
23 A. I do not recall.
24 Q. Do you recall whether or not they held any items
25 of clothing on a hanger other than this dark
99
1 pair of pants that the younger woman was
2 apparently still carrying?
3 A. I don't recall.
4 Q. Do you recall whether or not they pushed hangers
5 apart to look at items hanging on racks?
6 A. I don't recall.
7 Q. Do you recall whether or not they looked through
8 stacks of clothing stacked on shelves or
9 displays?
10 A. I didn't see them look through stacks of
11 clothes.
12 Q. What do you recall about how they looked at
13 clothes as they walked around this area during
14 this short interval?
15 A. Just stop and look.
16 Q. Did they touch any of them?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Hold any up to the children?
19 A. I don't recall.
20 Q. You next write in your report, "The one I had
21 been watching," by that you are referring to the
22 younger of the two?
23 A. Yes, sir.
24 Q. "The one I had been watching bent down and
25 picked up one of the children," do you recall
100
1 that?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And did she pick up the smaller or the larger of
4 two children?
5 A. I believe it was the smaller child.
6 Q. At that time do you recall anything that the
7 child was doing that caused the mother to pick
8 the child up?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Had the child asked to be picked up?
11 A. No. I don't recall.
12 Q. Had you seen the child make any motions like
13 hold its arms up?
14 A. I don't recall.
15 Q. Were you still too far away to hear any
16 conversation between the younger woman and the
17 child?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Could you tell whether or not they were talking,
20 or do you recall?
21 A. I don't recall.
22 Q. When the younger woman picked up one of the
23 children, you write next, "I noticed the dark
24 object she had rolled up was still in her left
25 hand and was now under the infant she picked
101
1 up." That's what you wrote?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. You still don't know what this dark object was,
4 do you?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Do you know what color it was?
7 A. Dark colored.
8 Q. I mean was it a dark blue, dark brown, black?
9 A. Dark.
10 Q. You don't know?
11 A. Dark.
12 Q. Do you know whether it was made out of soft
13 material, like cotton or wool, or whether it was
14 made out of a slick material like nylon, do you
15 recall anything about it?
16 A. It did not appear to be slick.
17 Q. So this is a dark non-slick material of some
18 kind, it was a cloth of some kind, I take it,
19 something soft that could be rolled up?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. You still don't know whether or not it was
22 Dillard's merchandise, is that correct?
23 A. I assumed it was.
24 Q. You didn't know that, did you?
25 A. I assumed it was.
102
1 Q. Had you seen it taken off a rack anywhere?
2 A. No.
3 Q. She still was carrying the hanger with the pants
4 on them, correct?
5 A. I don't recall if she still had that in her
6 hand.
7 Q. There was a time that you saw this dark rolled
8 up item and the pants on the hanger in her
9 possession at the same time?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. So you know that this rolled up item was not the
12 pants from the hanger, correct?
13 A. I have no idea.
14 Q. Since you saw them both at the same time, it's
15 highly unlikely that they are the same item,
16 isn't that correct?
17 A. I understand your question now.
18 Q. And you agree?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. So before she was rejoined by the older woman,
21 she had these pants on the hanger, still had the
22 dark colored pants on the hanger, and she had
23 this other item that was dark and rolled up, she
24 had those two items?
25 A. Yes.
103
1 Q. When the older woman rejoined her, she still had
2 at least the dark rolled up item, is that
3 correct?
4 A. Correct.
5 Q. You don't know whether or not she was still
6 holding the dark pants on the hanger, or you
7 don't recall, or do you?
8 A. I don't recall.
9 Q. You don't recall seeing her put the hanger down
10 that had the dark pants on it?
11 A. No.
12 Q. You don't recall seeing her hang it back up?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Hand it to the other woman when she rejoined
15 them?
16 A. No.
17 Q. You don't recall what she did with it when she
18 picked up the child?
19 A. She didn't have it in her hand when she picked
20 the child up.
21 Q. She did not have it in her hand?
22 A. Correct.
23 Q. Do you recall whether she laid it down next to
24 the child while she picked the child up?
25 A. I do not know.
104
1 Q. After she picked up the child, do you know
2 whether she then picked up the hanger with the
3 dark pants on it again?
4 A. She did not.
5 Q. Now the dark rolled up item was under the
6 infant, and then you next -- that she had picked
7 up, and then you write, "I then stopped Pam
8 Fitzgerel to watch the females," is that
9 correct?
10 A. Correct.
11 Q. Was Pam Fitzgerel just happening by at that
12 time?
13 A. She was working in the boys department.
14 Q. Where is the boys department -- oh, the boys
15 department is where you were standing?
16 A. Yes, sir.
17 Q. Had she been working there throughout this 17 to
18 20 minutes that you had been observing them?
19 A. I don't know what she was doing.
20 Q. Was this the first -- at the time you stopped
21 her, was that the first time you had seen her?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. To get this time right, before the women
24 separated you had observed them from one and a
25 half to five minutes, then you observed for 15
105
1 minutes, then when they came back together you
2 observed for about two to five minutes, is that
3 correct?
4 A. Correct.
5 Q. Approximately?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Up to the time you stopped Pam Fitzgerel to
8 watch the females. Then you wrote, "She watched
9 them go into an open dressing room." Did you
10 also watch them go into an open dressing room?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Was the dressing room a dressing room in the
13 infant section?
14 A. For boys.
15 Q. Did they have to cross the pedestrian aisle to
16 get to the dressing room?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. So they were coming toward you?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Did they walk past you?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Did you sort of move away from them as they were
23 headed toward the dressing room?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Did you try to maintain the approximately 25
106
1 foot separation from them?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Were you able to hear them as they entered the
4 dressing room?
5 A. I could tell they were speaking. I could not
6 hear what they were saying.
7 Q. What were they carrying to the dressing room?
8 A. The young black female had that dark rolled up
9 item under the infant that she picked up, or the
10 child she picked up. That went into the
11 dressing area, and also there was some
12 additional clothes, I believe, that the older
13 female had that was taken in there.
14 Q. The older female was taking clothes in on
15 hangers?
16 A. I don't recall.
17 Q. Across her arm?
18 A. I don't recall.
19 Q. Carrying them?
20 A. I don't recall.
21 Q. Do you remember what items of clothing they
22 were?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Do you remember how many there were?
25 A. No.
107
1 Q. What colors any of them were?
2 A. No.
3 Q. When they went into the dressing room, was there
4 a door on the dressing room?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Did both of the adults and the children go into
7 the dressing room?
8 A. I don't know.
9 Q. Were you watching them at that time?
10 A. I had partial visual on them.
11 Q. Why only partial?
12 A. Because someone was standing in the doorway.
13 Q. Who was that someone?
14 A. I don't recall.
15 Q. A customer?
16 A. No. It was one of the females.
17 Q. Either the older or the younger female was
18 standing in the open doorway?
19 A. When I last saw them, that's where they were,
20 yes, sir.
21 Q. And then the doorway closed, the door closed?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Was the door ever closed to the dressing room
24 that you observed?
25 A. Not that I observed.
108
1 Q. How long were they in the dressing room?
2 A. I don't recall the amount of time. It was not
3 an enormous amount of time.
4 Q. Five or ten minutes?
5 A. I don't believe it was more than five minutes.
6 Q. Four or five minutes, approximately?
7 A. I don't think it was more than five minutes.
8 Q. Was it less than four minutes?
9 A. I do not know.
10 Q. Less than two minutes?
11 A. No, it was not less than two minutes.
12 Q. Less than three minutes?
13 A. I have no idea.
14 Q. Two to five minutes, we can agree to that, is
15 that correct? You know it was not less than two
16 and you don't think it was more than five?
17 A. No, it could be more than five. I am just
18 approximating it.
19 Q. While they were in the dressing room, whoever
20 was in there, did you see the older black female
21 or the younger black female or the two children
22 in the boys section or the infants section?
23 A. No.
24 Q. And the person who was standing in the doorway
25 of the dressing room, did that person have her
109
1 back to you?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. So it was either the younger female or the older
4 female?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Was a sales associate assisting them at that
7 time?
8 A. Pam Fitzgerel.
9 Q. Did Pam Fitzgerel go into the dressing room with
10 them?
11 A. She went into the fitting area, at the doorway
12 into the fitting area.
13 Q. The door remained open while she was in the
14 fitting area, while Pam Fitzgerel was in the
15 fitting area?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. As you are standing observing this dressing
18 room, can you picture in your mind that there is
19 a black female standing there with her back to
20 you in the doorway?
21 A. I just know it was a female.
22 Q. With her back to you?
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. You don't know whether it was the taller or the
25 shorter of black females?
110
1 A. No.
2 Q. You do believe it was one of these two black
3 females you had been observing?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. It wasn't another black female?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Do you recall whether or not you were looking at
8 the back of a black leather coat?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Did you observe the area of the dressing room as
11 long the black females were using it at this
12 time, whether it was two or five or six minutes,
13 however long it was?
14 A. In the fitting room, in the fitting area,
15 because I even moved while Pam assisted.
16 Q. Where did you move to?
17 A. Just in the boys section there.
18 Q. To get a different view in the fitting area?
19 A. To see if I could.
20 Q. How many dressing rooms are there in the fitting
21 area, three or four?
22 A. I think more than five.
23 Q. Was anyone else using a dressing room while you
24 were there?
25 A. I have no idea.
111
1 Q. Were any other sales associates in the fitting
2 area while Pam Fitzgerel was back there?
3 A. I do not recall.
4 Q. Did the black female who was standing in the
5 door of the dressing room in the fitting area
6 stand there as long as you were observing her?
7 A. I don't recall.
8 Q. You don't recall whether or not part of the time
9 the female who was standing in the doorway when
10 you observed her went on into the dressing room?
11 A. I don't recall.
12 Q. Do you know whether or not Pam Fitzgerel went
13 into the dressing room?
14 A. She went into the fitting room area.
15 Q. Yes, but did she go into the dressing room?
16 A. I do not know.
17 Q. Were you in an area where you could have
18 observed her if she went into the dressing room
19 at all times? I didn't say that right.
20 Were you at all times in a position
21 where you could see her if she went into the
22 fitting room?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Among these people you are observing, we now
25 have five people there, we have the older black
112
1 female, the younger black female, the two
2 children and Pam Fitzgerel, is that correct?
3 A. As I can recall, yes.
4 Q. You don't recall anyone else being in the
5 fitting area?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Among those five, who was the first to leave the
8 fitting area?
9 A. I don't recall.
10 Q. Did Pam Fitzgerel leave the fitting area before
11 the black females or after the black females?
12 A. I believe Pam came out and talked to me while
13 they were still there.
14 Q. How many conversations did you have with Pam
15 Fitzgerel after she had gone into the fitting
16 area?
17 A. Two.
18 Q. One was when she came out?
19 A. Yes, sir.
20 Q. And while they were still in the fitting area?
21 A. Yes, sir.
22 Q. And one was later after they had come out of the
23 fitting area?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. During the first conversation what did she say
113
1 when she came out to you?
2 A. As I read in the report earlier, "Fitzgerel came
3 up to me and said she observed the black female
4 with the coat on put something under her coat."
5 Q. Did you ask her what that something was?
6 A. I again asked her what she saw, and she said
7 that, once again, she observed the black female
8 putting something under her coat.
9 Q. Did Pam Fitzgerel use the word "something" to
10 describe what was put under the coat?
11 A. I don't recall.
12 Q. As best as you can recall, when Pam Fitzgerel
13 came up to you at this time, what words -- who
14 spoke to whom first when she approached you,
15 right, she came to you, is that correct?
16 A. She contacted me.
17 Q. When she contacted you who spoke first?
18 A. She did.
19 Q. What did she say, as best you can recall her
20 words?
21 A. As I stated, she told me that the black female
22 with the coat on had put something under her
23 coat.
24 Q. So your best recollection is she used the word
25 "something" to describe what was put under her
114
1 coat?
2 A. I have got that in my report, but I don't recall
3 her exact words.
4 Q. Did she name it. If she had named an object you
5 would have put it in your report, wouldn't you?
6 If she said she put a hat under her arm, you
7 would with written hat?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. If she had said shoes you would have written
10 shoes?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Is it your best recollection that she did not
13 name the item that she saw placed under the
14 coat?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. So she used the word "something" or another word
17 equivalent to describe an object, is that
18 correct?
19 A. Those are my words of something.
20 Q. I am trying to find out what she said. So I am
21 asking as best as you can recall what she said
22 was placed under the coat?
23 A. As I stated in my report, she said "something,"
24 and that's my words, and I don't know her exact
25 words.
115
1 Q. Is it correct that she told you, that you
2 understood her to be saying that some object had
3 been placed under the coat by the young female?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Is it your understanding that she was not then
6 able to say what that object was?
7 A. Correct.
8 Q. Did you ask her what the object was, did you say
9 could you see what it was, could you tell what
10 it was?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. What did she say?
13 A. Just something.
14 Q. All right. You are not sure she used that word
15 "something?"
16 A. Correct.
17 Q. You asked her if she was positive what she saw,
18 and she again stated she observed the black
19 female of putting something under her coat,
20 correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. That's the end of the first conversation with
23 her?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Then you write, "Both came out of the dressing
116
1 room." By both you mean the two older females?
2 A. Correct.
3 Q. Did the children come out at the same time?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Where was the stroller during the time they were
6 in the dressing room?
7 A. In the fitting room area.
8 Q. But not in the dressing room?
9 A. I don't know.
10 Q. What was on the stroller during this time?
11 A. I have no idea.
12 Q. Do you recall whether anything and on the
13 stroller at this time?
14 A. Baby carriage for something to be placed in.
15 Q. You mean like a child seat?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Did it have a bag hanging on the stroller?
18 A. I don't recall.
19 Q. Sometimes strollers come with built in diaper
20 bags, and bottle bags, and things like that, do
21 you recall if it had such an attachment?
22 A. No. I stated I don't recall.
23 Q. Do you recall whether or not the baby stroller
24 had any packages on it?
25 A. I don't recall.
117
1 Q. Or any clothing?
2 A. I don't recall.
3 Q. Any hangers with clothing draped over it?
4 A. I don't recall.
5 Q. You recall that it was in the fitting area, but
6 you don't recall if it was in the dressing room,
7 correct?
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. Both of the females came out, and they walked
10 over into another department. What department
11 was that?
12 A. It's still in the infant department, but not in
13 the Polo section.
14 Q. What department was it?
15 A. Infants, but in another area. I just meant in
16 that same area, but a different location.
17 Q. You said another department. What do you mean
18 by another department?
19 A. As I just stated, that instead of the Polo
20 department area, they went into another section
21 of the infants department there.
22 Q. What section was that?
23 A. Cash register.
24 Q. You write that they purchased some items. Do
25 you know what items they purchased?
118
1 A. No.
2 Q. Did you see this transaction?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. How far away were you at this time?
5 A. Oh, probably 50 feet.
6 Q. Why had you moved farther than the 25 feet that
7 you had been maintaining?
8 A. Because the cash register was a little bit
9 farther away, where they went to.
10 Q. When they came out of dressing room they walked
11 toward the cash register, correct?
12 A. No, they bypassed one cash register, and went
13 over into the infant section and purchased the
14 items in the infant section.
15 Q. They bypassed the cashier section in the boys?
16 A. Yes, sir.
17 Q. And went back to where they had been shopping in
18 the infant section, correct?
19 A. They went further back into that area.
20 Q. Who waited on them at the cash register?
21 A. Some associate.
22 Q. Not Pam Fitzgerel?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Do you know how many items they bought, at that
25 time were you able to tell how many items they
119
1 were buying?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Do you know how they paid for them?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Do you know whether any of them were on hangers?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Do you know whether any of them had been on
8 hangers?
9 A. No.
10 Q. How long did the first conversation with Pam
11 Fitzgerel last?
12 A. Very briefly.
13 Q. About a minute or less?
14 A. Less than a minute.
15 Q. 30 seconds, about 30 seconds?
16 A. Probably less than 30 seconds.
17 Q. However long it took her to twice tell you that
18 she had seen them put something under a coat?
19 A. Correct.
20 Q. Then from the time that the two females walked
21 out of the dressing room and went to the cash
22 register in the infant section and paid for
23 their items, how long did that take?
24 A. It wasn't very long.
25 Q. Two, three minutes?
120
1 A. Probably.
2 Q. While they were at the cash register is that
3 when Pam Fitzgerel went back to the dressing
4 room?
5 A. While there were en route to the cash register
6 area.
7 Q. They were coming out of the dressing room, she
8 goes in it immediately after they come out?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. While there were at the cash register, is that
11 when she comes back to you and has her second
12 conversation?
13 A. It's while they were walking towards the cash
14 register.
15 Q. How long did it take them to get from the
16 dressing room to the cash register?
17 A. Probably a minute or so.
18 Q. Took a minute. All right.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. During this minute or so Pam Fitzgerel went into
21 the dressing room and looked around and came
22 back to you?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. When she approached you for the second
25 conversation, who spoke first?
121
1 A. I believe I asked her to check to see if the
2 dressing room was empty or if there was anything
3 in there.
4 Q. You asked her that at the end of the first
5 conversation?
6 A. I don't know if I asked Pam or she took it upon
7 herself to check and advise me.
8 Q. Your report doesn't say either way, does it?
9 A. No.
10 Q. You don't have any recollection?
11 A. No.
12 Q. At the end of the first conversation, you could
13 have asked her, "Pam, would you go check to see
14 if there is anything in the dressing room," that
15 could have been happened, then, correct?
16 A. No, I wouldn't have done that.
17 Q. Or she could have said at the end of the first
18 conversation, "I will go check the dressing
19 room?"
20 A. She could have.
21 Q. But you don't recall it?
22 A. No, I do not.
23 Q. Is it your best recollection that there was no
24 conversation about who was going to check or
25 whether she should check the dressing room, or
122
1 you just don't recall if there was a
2 conversation?
3 A. I don't recall who instigated the conversation.
4 Q. But you do recall there was a conversation about
5 checking the dressing room?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Do you recall whether or not that was at the end
8 of the first conversation, when she came back
9 saying she had seen something go under the coat?
10 A. It would have been after they departed the
11 fitting room area.
12 Q. She was still standing next to you when they
13 departed the fitting room area?
14 A. I don't recall where she was.
15 Q. But she was close enough to you to have some
16 conversation about checking the dressing room?
17 A. After they left.
18 Q. So if she wasn't near you, then she came back to
19 you?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Had a brief conversation about checking the
22 dressing room?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Then she went to check the dressing room?
25 A. Yes.
123
1 Q. Then she came back and had a third conversation
2 with you, isn't that right?
3 A. Yes.
4 (Discussion off the record.)
5 (A recess was taken.)
6 Q. (By Mr. Benson) I want to go back to the first
7 conversation with Pam Fitzgerel when you wrote
8 in your report, "I then stopped Pam Fitzgerel to
9 watch the females." Do you recall what
10 language, what words you used to watch the
11 females?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. What did you say?
14 A. I told her that the young female had a dark item
15 under her left arm that the child was on top of.
16 Q. And asked her to watch that?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Then the second conversation with Pam Fitzgerel
19 was when she said or you said, somebody said --
20 had the conversation about going to check the
21 dressing room?
22 A. No.
23 Q. No. Oh, excuse me. The second conversation was
24 when she came back and said about something
25 being put under the coat?
124
1 A. Yes, sir.
2 Q. The third conversation was when there was a
3 brief conversation about someone checking the
4 dressing room?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Then she came back after having checked the
7 dressing room and approached you, correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. It was the fourth conversation then. What did
10 she say when she came up to you? You wrote in
11 your report, "Fitzgerel checked the dressing
12 room and it was empty."
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. What words did she say?
15 A. I don't know her exact words, but I know that
16 she said it was empty.
17 Q. Now, after the women, the two black females,
18 went to the cashier, you observed them from
19 about 50 feet away when they made their
20 purchases, is that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. After they made their purchases, where did they
23 go?
24 A. Back into the cosmetic department.
25 Q. And was that further away from you, were they
125
1 walking away from you even further?
2 A. They were coming toward me.
3 Q. Coming toward you?
4 A. Yes, sir.
5 Q. Were you still in the boys department?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. In your report you write, "I followed them to
8 men's cosmetic," and there a word that is
9 crossed out and something written in. What is
10 the word that is written in?
11 A. I don't know.
12 Q. Or is that your initials?
13 A. Those are my initials, showing that I crossed
14 something out.
15 Q. So as you were writing the report, you started
16 to write something, changed your mind, crossed
17 it out and initialled it?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. "I followed them to men's cosmetic and stopped
20 them before they left the store," is that
21 correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Before you stopped them, did you go to the
24 cashier and find out what they had purchased?
25 A. No.
126
1 Q. Were you able to see this rolled up blue item
2 while they were at the cashier area?
3 A. I never saw it again.
4 Q. Were you able to tell what items they were
5 purchasing at the cashier from where you were?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Do you know whether Pam Fitzgerel was able to
8 observe what they were purchasing?
9 A. I can't speak for her.
10 Q. Do you know whether she ever asked the cashier
11 what had been purchased?
12 A. I do not know.
13 Q. Did you ask the cashier what had been purchased?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Do you know how many items the two woman had
16 purchased at this cashier stand?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Do you know whether it was more than one?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. How do you know it was more than one?
21 A. From a receipt that they had.
22 Q. You later found out that it was more than one?
23 A. Yes, sir.
24 Q. But at the time that they were making the
25 purchase you couldn't tell whether there were
127
1 purchasing one or five items?
2 A. Correct.
3 Q. You couldn't tell whether the items were large
4 or small?
5 A. No, I could not.
6 Q. Light or dark?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Soft and fussy or slick and artificial?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Did you later learn what the items were that
11 they purchased from the receipt?
12 A. I couldn't tell you.
13 MR. BENSON: This is a good stopping
14 point here, if you want to stop. We are about
15 to get into the stop.
16 MS. KOCH: Let's take a quick one.
17 MR. BENSON: Off the record.
18 (Discussion off the record.)
19 (The noon recess was taken.)
20 Q. (By Mr. Benson) Mr. Wilson, I want to go back
21 to where you described that you saw the younger
22 female place this rolled up item under the
23 infant. How was she carrying the infant and the
24 item, could you describe what you saw?
25 A. The dark colored item was resting on her left
128
1 forearm, and she had the child cradled in her
2 left arm, and so the child was sitting on top of
3 the item.
4 Q. Of the item?
5 A. Yes, sir.
6 Q. What was the size of this item? Was it rolled
7 up when you saw it at that time, still appeared
8 to be rolled up?
9 A. Yes, it was still -- not -- yes.
10 Q. About what were its dimensions, approximately?
11 A. I couldn't say. It didn't take up her whole
12 arm.
13 Q. Was it sort of crosswise on her arm?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. As opposed to being parallel to her arm?
16 A. It was parallel to her arm.
17 Q. Parallel to the arm?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And riding on the -- as you extend your left
20 hand palm up in front of you, then the bottom of
21 your forearm is facing up?
22 A. Yes, sir.
23 Q. So she had it on that bottom of her forearm
24 which was facing up?
25 A. Yes, sir.
129
1 Q. And the child was on top of that?
2 A. Yes, sir.
3 Q. Did this item run from her wrist to her elbow,
4 approximately?
5 A. It was in that area.
6 Q. Give or take a few inches?
7 A. Yes, sir.
8 Q. At this time were you able to see what it was?
9 A. No, sir.
10 Q. You don't know. You couldn't tell anything more
11 about it then than when you had first seen it?
12 A. That's correct.
13 Q. All you know it was a dark colored item?
14 A. Yes, sir.
15 Q. You don't know whether it was had more than one
16 color, could it have been two or three dark
17 colors, or do you know?
18 A. No, sir, I don't recall.
19 Q. You just don't recall?
20 A. No. It was just dark colored.
21 Q. When she came out, the child was on top of it,
22 so you could only see, I take it, a little slice
23 of it?
24 A. Yes, sir.
25 Q. Have you ever seen these two females since April
130
1 5th, 1996, to your knowledge?
2 A. No, sir.
3 Q. Would you recognize them if you saw them again?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Can you describe any features of them, did they
6 have thin faces or round faces?
7 A. I cannot recall.
8 Q. For either of them?
9 A. No, sir.
10 Q. As to their weight, were they heavy, normal or
11 light weight?
12 A. The young female that I was watching looked like
13 she was a thin female.
14 Q. Was she tall, short or of medium height?
15 A. She wasn't small but she wasn't overly tall.
16 Q. In between?
17 A. Yes, sir.
18 Q. And the older of the females, was she tall,
19 medium or short?
20 A. I cannot recall her size.
21 Q. Was there any significance difference in their
22 sizes, in their heights?
23 A. I am thinking the older female might have been
24 shorter.
25 Q. By very much?
131
1 A. No, sir, I cannot recall that.
2 Q. In your report you say you followed them to
3 men's cosmetic. Did they stop at men's
4 cosmetic?
5 A. They were coming through cosmetics just looking
6 at the time.
7 Q. And pausing and moving on and pausing?
8 A. As I recall, yes, sir.
9 Q. Had they stopped at a counter by the time you
10 approached them?
11 A. We were next to a counter when I approached
12 them.
13 Q. Were they being waited on or assisted by an
14 associate when you approached them?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Was there an associate nearby when you
17 approached them?
18 A. There were associates in the area.
19 Q. Did they have any cosmetic items in their hands
20 that they were looking at when you approached
21 them?
22 A. Not that I recall.
23 Q. Were they walking or had the stopped when you
24 approached them?
25 A. They were walking.
132
1 Q. Is it more or less a straight line from the
2 infants cashier to the men's cosmetic, or do
3 they have to wander through?
4 A. They have to wander through.
5 Q. Through other sections of the department store?
6 A. From the infants over into the cosmetics.
7 Q. About how far from the cashier where they bought
8 their items in the infant section to the men's
9 cosmetic is that distance? If you walked it off
10 and measured their path, would it be 20 yards,
11 30 yards?
12 A. It could be 20 yards.
13 Q. Then were they walking in one of the aisles?
14 A. Yes, sir.
15 Q. Where does that aisle lead that there were on?
16 A. To the mall entrance.
17 Q. How far is the men's cosmetic -- let me start
18 that over.
19 From the point where you stopped them
20 to the mall entrance what is the distance?
21 A. Four feet.
22 Q. When you approached them they were pushing the
23 baby stroller?
24 A. Yes, sir.
25 Q. Was anything in the stroller?
133
1 A. I don't recall.
2 Q. Was the infant still being carried by the
3 younger female?
4 A. I don't believe so.
5 Q. Where was the smaller of the two children when
6 you approached them?
7 A. I don't recall.
8 Q. Were they carrying any packages that you
9 noticed?
10 A. Yes, sir.
11 Q. Who was carrying the packages, or how many
12 packages were being carried?
13 A. I believe one package.
14 Q. Who had the package?
15 A. I don't recall.
16 Q. When you approached them, did you speak first?
17 A. Yes, I did.
18 Q. What did you say?
19 A. I identified myself as Dillard's security.
20 Q. What words did you use when you identified
21 yourself?
22 A. I am Dillard's security. "Hello, I am Dillard's
23 security."
24 Q. The first word you said was, "Hello"?
25 A. Yes.
134
1 Q. And you said, "I am Dillard's security"?
2 A. Yes, sir.
3 Q. Did you show any identification?
4 A. I don't believe so.
5 Q. You said, "I am Dillard's security." Did they
6 respond, did anyone respond?
7 A. I don't recall.
8 Q. What was said next?
9 A. I advised both of them that the young female had
10 been observed placing something under her coat
11 by an associate.
12 Q. What language, to the best of your recollection,
13 did you use when you advised them that?
14 A. What I just stated.
15 Q. You didn't say use the word "advised," did
16 you?
17 A. I was told.
18 Q. So try it as best as you can, use the words of
19 what you said, you said, "I was told," then what
20 did you say?
21 A. Told them that the young black female had been
22 observed placing something in her coat.
23 Q. Did you use the phrase, "Young black female,"
24 when you were speaking to them?
25 A. Yes, sir.
135
1 Q. You stopped them and said, "Hello, I am
2 Dillard's security. The young black female has
3 been observed placing something in her coat," is
4 that what you said?
5 A. Yes, sir.
6 Q. Did you say that to the older black female?
7 A. I said it to both of them.
8 Q. Let me see if I understand it. "Hello, I am
9 Dillard's security." That's the first thing you
10 said?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Did you pause for a second to see if there was
13 any response?
14 A. I have no recollection of that, sir.
15 Q. "Hello, I am Dillard's security. The young
16 black female has been observed placing something
17 in her coat." That's what you said to the best
18 of your recollection?
19 A. I cannot tell you exactly what I stated.
20 Q. But you did use the phrase, "young black
21 female?"
22 A. The young female.
23 Q. You didn't use the adjective black?
24 A. No, sir.
25 Q. If you earlier stated that in answer of one of
136
1 my questions, then that was a mistake?
2 A. Yes, it was.
3 Q. Did you use the word "young?"
4 A. Yes, I did.
5 Q. After you said -- did you say who had observed
6 her placing something in the coat, did you say
7 by a sales associate?
8 A. I can't recall.
9 Q. Was the young female still wearing the black
10 coat?
11 A. Yes, sir.
12 Q. Then your report says, "The black female pushing
13 the baby stroller," that is referring to the
14 older of the two women, is that right?
15 A. It could be yes, sir. Yes, sir.
16 Q. It was?
17 A. Yes, sir.
18 Q. "She said they had purchased something, and I
19 asked to look into the bag." Is that what you
20 wrote?
21 A. Yes, sir.
22 Q. Do you recall what words the older female said
23 when she said they purchased some items, do you
24 recall what language she used?
25 A. No.
137
1 Q. Did she say what they had purchased?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Did she say how many items they had purchased?
4 A. No.
5 Q. She just said words to the effect, "We purchased
6 some items?"
7 A. Yes, sir.
8 Q. Did she say where, in what department?
9 A. No.
10 Q. What words did you use when you asked to look in
11 the bag?
12 A. "I would like to look at your receipt for the
13 items that are in the bag."
14 Q. That's what you said?
15 A. Yes, sir.
16 Q. Where was the receipt?
17 A. Inside the bag.
18 Q. Who had the bag at that time?
19 A. I can't recall who had it.
20 Q. One of the two?
21 A. Yes, sir.
22 Q. One of the two adults, is that correct?
23 A. Yes, sir.
24 Q. It wasn't in the stroller?
25 A. Not that I recall.
138
1 Q. Whoever had it handed it to you?
2 A. Yes, sir.
3 Q. And did you take the items out?
4 A. I could have.
5 Q. You put them on the cosmetics counter?
6 A. I could have.
7 Q. Do you recall whether you did or not?
8 A. No.
9 Q. In your report you said, "Inside were three
10 items and a receipt for the items."
11 A. Yes, sir.
12 Q. Do you recall what those three items were?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Do you recall whether they were infants
15 clothing?
16 A. I believe they were infants clothing.
17 Q. Do you recall what they were made out of?
18 A. No, sir.
19 Q. Do you recall whether they were large or small?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Do you recall what color they were?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Do you recall whether they were a combination,
24 whether they were like a matching set of
25 something?
139
1 A. I do not recall.
2 Q. Do you recall whether they were soft or stiff?
3 A. No, sir.
4 Q. Where were the children at the time?
5 A. With the females.
6 Q. Standing there in the vicinity with them?
7 A. Yes, sir.
8 Q. Do you recall how the children were dressed?
9 A. No, sir.
10 Q. Do you recall whether the children had on any
11 outer garments?
12 A. No, sir.
13 Q. Coats or jackets?
14 A. I do not recall.
15 Q. Were there any Dillard's hangers in the bag?
16 A. No, sir.
17 Q. This item you had seen earlier that was on the
18 younger female's foreman that ran, give or take
19 a few inches, from nearly her wrist to her
20 elbow, do you recall the diameter of it when it
21 was rolled up, are we talking about three inches
22 in diameter?
23 A. Approximately.
24 Q. I am not real good at distances here, but would
25 you say it was like eight, nine or ten inches
140
1 long and three inches in diameter,
2 approximately?
3 A. I don't know how long it was.
4 Q. Was anything said while you were taking the
5 items out of the bag, was anybody talking?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Who was talking?
8 A. The older female.
9 Q. What was she saying? I am talking about during
10 the time you were taking the items out of the
11 bag?
12 A. Yes, sir.
13 Q. What was being said, if anything?
14 A. She gave me -- somebody gave me permission to
15 look inside the bag.
16 Q. You said, "I would like to look inside the bag,"
17 and they handed the bag to you?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. From the time they handed the bag to you until
20 you finished taking the items out and comparing
21 them to the receipt was anything said, or did
22 you look at the items and compare them to the
23 receipt in silence?
24 A. Yes, sir, I did.
25 Q. You were not saying anything, is that correct?
141
1 A. No. I was busy looking at the items.
2 Q. And they weren't saying anything either. They
3 were watching you look at the items?
4 A. Yes, they started watching me take them out and
5 look at them.
6 Q. While you were checking the items against the
7 receipt no one was saying anything, is that
8 correct?
9 A. I can't recall.
10 Q. You compared the three items to the receipt, is
11 that correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And the three items matched the receipt?
14 A. I looked on the sales ticket and there were
15 three items, and that's what she had in her bag
16 was three items.
17 Q. That satisfied you that the three items in the
18 bag were not stolen merchandise of Dillard's?
19 A. Yes, sir.
20 Q. What did you do then?
21 A. I had a conversation with the older female.
22 Q. Who started that conversation?
23 A. She did.
24 Q. Did you tell her what you had seen by comparing
25 the items to the sales ticket?
142
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. What did you tell her?
3 A. I said, "That's fine."
4 Q. That's after you finished looking at them you
5 turned to her and said, "That's fine?"
6 A. No. She struck up a conversation with me before
7 I had the items back into the bag.
8 Q. Did you put the items back into the bag
9 yourself, or leave them for them to do that?
10 A. I should have put them back into the bag myself.
11 Q. But you don't recall?
12 A. No, sir.
13 Q. She started the conversation. What did she say,
14 the older lady?
15 A. She was talking about that I was accusing them
16 of shoplifting, and that I had no right to stop
17 them outside the Dillard's store. And at that
18 point, I advised her, and showed her where the
19 door closes in Dillard's and that we were
20 actually still inside Dillard's.
21 Q. Did you respond to what she had said about her
22 belief that you had accused her of shoplifting?
23 A. I explained to her that it was the young female.
24 Q. That what was the young female?
25 A. That was observed. That's why I talked to them.
143
1 Q. And the young female was standing there?
2 A. Not saying a word.
3 Q. She didn't say anything?
4 A. No.
5 Q. In your mind, do you consider that to be
6 suspicious that she was not saying anything?
7 A. I don't know what was going through her mind.
8 Q. Did you consider that to be suspicious?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Is it your belief that if she had not stolen
11 anything she would have spoken up and defended
12 herself, is that your belief?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. "The older female," then you write, "was
15 starting to get louder and louder, and I asked
16 to calm down."
17 A. Yes, sir.
18 Q. What was she saying that she was saying in a
19 louder and louder voice?
20 A. Of being accused of shoplifting, and that they
21 were going to return all the items that she had
22 purchased, and that she had spent over $10,000
23 in the last year at Dillard's.
24 Q. This was what she was saying louder and louder
25 before you asked her to calm down?
144
1 A. This was during while she was speaking, I tried
2 to calm her down.
3 Q. You asked her to calm down, did you say, "Ma'am,
4 calm down?"
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. "Ma'am, please calm down."
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. You said that after she had gotten louder and
9 louder?
10 A. Yes, sir.
11 Q. "She kept interrupting me," you wrote, "and
12 talking loud." She continued talking loud?
13 A. Yes, sir.
14 Q. "I told her if she wouldn't calm down I would
15 have to call the Overland Park Police
16 Department."
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Did you use essentially those words, "Ma'am, if
19 you don't calm down I will have to call Overland
20 Park?"
21 A. Yes, sir.
22 Q. Her response was, "Go ahead?"
23 A. Yes, sir.
24 Q. Then you said, "Would you like to go to the
25 office to talk?"
145
1 A. Yes, sir.
2 Q. Using approximately those words?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And she turned to the younger female and said,
5 "We are going to return all the items, because
6 we don't need this," is that what she said?
7 A. Yes, sir.
8 Q. She asked about using the phone, and you pointed
9 her to the pay phone outside the door?
10 A. Yes, sir.
11 Q. Was there a manager on duty at this time?
12 A. I have no idea who was on duty.
13 Q. Is there usually a manager on duty when the
14 store is open?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Where is the manager's office?
17 A. Well, it all depends on who is working.
18 Q. Is there an office suite where the managers are?
19 A. Well, it's for -- Marvie Dirks has an office and
20 then some others, but when they have a manager
21 on duty, it could be the manager who has an
22 office in a different part of the store.
23 Q. Are any of the managers located in or near
24 customer service?
25 A. No, sir.
146
1 Q. Customer service is on what floor?
2 A. Third floor.
3 Q. This cosmetic counter where you stopped the two
4 females is on the second floor?
5 A. Yes, sir.
6 Q. You told the older female that customer service
7 was on the third floor, correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And you watched them go, it says to the men's
10 department. Is the men's department in the
11 direction of customer service?
12 A. That's to the escalator or to the elevator to go
13 up to the third floor.
14 Q. To customer service?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You only watched them go as far as men's
17 department on the way to customer service?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. You later learned they did go to customer
20 service?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Then you left the area?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Where did you go?
25 A. I went to write a report.
147
1 Q. Where did you write the report?
2 A. Over in the executive offices.
3 Q. Who was present in the executive offices when
4 you got there, anyone?
5 A. I don't think there was anybody because I used
6 an empty office.
7 Q. Then in your report you write, "The female
8 wearing the dark coat," this is the younger
9 female you are referring to, is that correct?
10 A. Yes, sir.
11 Q. "The female wearing the dark coat never said a
12 word." By never said a word, what time period
13 are you referring to?
14 A. The whole time that I was in contact.
15 Q. At the cosmetic counter area?
16 A. Yes, sir.
17 Q. From the time you first approached them until
18 the time you went to write your report she never
19 said a word?
20 A. Correct.
21 Q. Didn't say a word to you?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Is that correct?
24 A. Correct.
25 Q. And did she say anything to the other female?
148
1 A. I cannot recall.
2 Q. You don't recall her ever saying a word to the
3 other female either, correct?
4 A. I cannot recall.
5 Q. You cannot recall whether she said a word or you
6 cannot recall what she said?
7 A. I cannot recall if she spoke to the lady that
8 was with her.
9 Q. Do you recall whether she spoke to the children?
10 A. No, I cannot.
11 Q. Did she at any time say that she had not stolen
12 anything?
13 A. No, sir.
14 Q. Was she still carrying the purse that you
15 observed earlier?
16 A. Yes, sir.
17 Q. What can you tell us about the purse. What did
18 it look like?
19 A. As I stated earlier, I could not describe the
20 purse to you in size, color, shape.
21 Q. You can't tell us whether it was large or small,
22 correct?
23 A. As I stated earlier.
24 Q. Can you tell us whether is was on her left
25 shoulder or right shoulder?
149
1 A. No, I cannot.
2 Q. At any time you were there did you hear the
3 younger female at any time protest that she had
4 not taken anything from Dillard's?
5 A. No, sir.
6 Q. Who else was in the vicinity at the time?
7 A. I have no idea.
8 Q. Were there some sales associates nearby?
9 A. Could be.
10 Q. Do you know if any sales associates stopped to
11 observe what was going on?
12 A. I have no idea.
13 Q. Have you read any of the reports of the sales
14 associates?
15 A. One.
16 Q. Who was that?
17 A. Pam Fitzgerel, as I stated earlier.
18 Q. Was she present when you stopped the older and
19 the younger female?
20 A. I don't believe so.
21 Q. What color of eyes do you have?
22 A. Hazel.
23 Q. How tall are you?
24 A. 5-10.
25 Q. How much do you weigh?
150
1 A. Well, this morning on the scale I was 178.
2 Q. Do you recall approximately how much you weighed
3 back in April of '96?
4 A. I pretty well stay the same.
5 Q. Been the same since you graduated from high
6 school, probably?
7 A. No.
8 Q. No? Have you been from 170 to 180 pretty much
9 for the last five or six years?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Do you workout?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. What do you do to workout?
14 A. Run and lift weights.
15 Q. You stated that when you approached the two
16 women as they were passing through men's
17 cosmetic, they were walking, correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Do you recall which one was pushing the
20 stroller?
21 A. I think you asked me a question earlier, and I
22 think I identified the older female.
23 Q. When you stopped them, did you step in front of
24 them, because they were walking?
25 A. Yes, sir.
151
1 Q. That's when you said, "Hello, I am Dillard's
2 security?"
3 A. Yes, sir.
4 Q. Were the two female walking together, were they
5 sort of more or less shoulder to shoulder?
6 A. They were together.
7 Q. With the stroller out in front of one of them?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And did they have the children by the hands?
10 A. As I said earlier, I don't recall what the kids
11 were doing.
12 Q. Were they in the front or behind or at the side
13 of the adults?
14 A. They wouldn't have been in front, because I was
15 talking to both females.
16 Q. When you stepped in front of them, you stepped
17 directly in front of two females?
18 A. Yes, sir.
19 Q. So there wasn't enough room for the children to
20 be in between you and the females?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. You were 12 or 18 inches away from the females?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Have you see Dillard's video entitled,
25 "Shrinkage, we all pay"?
152
1 A. No.
2 Q. Have you ever been in Dillard's loss prevention
3 program?
4 A. No, sir.
5 Q. I am showing you what's been marked Deposition
6 Exhibit 4, which is several pages, entitled,
7 "Shrinkage, we all pay." Have you ever seen
8 that document before? It's an outline of a
9 presentation in their loss prevention program, I
10 believe?
11 A. No.
12 Q. You have never seen it before?
13 A. No.
14 Q. At the beginning of the deposition you said that
15 it was your belief today that some item of
16 Dillard's merchandise was stolen on this
17 occasion we have been discussing, is that
18 correct?
19 A. Yes, sir.
20 Q. Is it your belief that that item was in the
21 possession of one of these two women at the time
22 you stopped them?
23 A. Yes, sir.
24 Q. Where do you believe that item was at the time?
25 A. It was either in the bag or on the young female.
153
1 Q. In what bag?
2 A. The bag that I checked for the three items that
3 they had a receipt for.
4 Q. I thought you checked and were satisfied that
5 they had not stolen anything, that nothing in
6 the bag had been stolen?
7 A. That's correct.
8 Q. So now you are saying it could have been in the
9 bag, the stolen item could have been in the bag?
10 A. No, sir.
11 Q. I must have misunderstood. Let me ask the
12 question again. Where do you now believe the
13 stolen item was located at the time you stopped
14 the two women at men's cosmetic?
15 A. When I stopped them, as I stated, it could be
16 either in the bag -- that's why I wanted to
17 check the bag.
18 Q. That's what you were thinking at that time?
19 A. Yes, sir.
20 Q. My question is today. At the beginning of this
21 deposition you stated that you believe that they
22 had, in fact, stolen an item?
23 A. Yes, sir.
24 Q. That's still your belief?
25 A. Yes.
154
1 Q. Now, at the end of the deposition as it was at
2 the beginning?
3 A. Yes, sir.
4 Q. I am not promising this is the end, but toward
5 the end.
6 MS. KOCH: I know we have been going
7 on for a while, but I do object to the extent
8 you are mischaracterizing the previous testimony
9 because I don't believe Mr. Wilson said he
10 thought the two women had taken an item.
11 Q. (By Mr. Benson) Is it your belief that one of
12 the two women was in the process of stealing an
13 item when you stopped them at Dillard's on April
14 5, 1996?
15 A. Yes, sir.
16 Q. Today, as you are thinking back over this, where
17 do you believe the item was located?
18 A. With the young female.
19 Q. Where do you think the young female had it?
20 A. Inside her coat.
21 Q. You didn't check inside her coat when you
22 stopped them?
23 A. No, sir.
24 Q. Why not?
25 A. I was satisfied. I would rather let one item go
155
1 out the door, someone that deprived Dillard's of
2 their property, and that's the decision I made.
3 Q. So you were thinking at that time it's probably
4 under the coat but I better not check, I think I
5 will not check?
6 A. I did not check her coat.
7 Q. At the time, did you think about checking the
8 coat?
9 A. No.
10 Q. It didn't occur to you to check the coat?
11 A. I stopped, after I checked the bag and did not
12 want to pursue it.
13 Q. After you checked the bag, did you consider
14 checking the young female's coat?
15 A. No, sir.
16 Q. The item that you believed was being stolen, was
17 it too large to be in her purse, or do you know?
18 A. I don't know.
19 Q. You didn't think about checking her purse at
20 that time either, did you?
21 A. No, sir.
22 Q. In part, you believed that the young female was
23 stealing the item because she remained silent
24 when you were discussing this?
25 A. Yes, sir.
156
1 Q. And that's an important part your belief now
2 that she stole the item, it's an important part
3 of the evidence that leads you to conclude that
4 she was stealing the item at the time, is that
5 right?
6 A. No. The combination of what Pam Fitzgerel had
7 advised me, and then also of her silence.
8 Q. Have you testified in any shoplifting or theft
9 cases on behalf of Dillard's?
10 A. Yes, sir.
11 Q. Approximately how many?
12 A. Very few.
13 Q. Five?
14 A. Could be five or less, sir.
15 Q. Is it customary to allow suspects believed to
16 have shoplifted merchandise of Dillard's to
17 depart the store before you stop them?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And that's done so you can establish the legal
20 element of intent to deprive the store of its
21 lawful ownership of the property?
22 A. No. We have stopped them inside the store also
23 with that same intent.
24 Q. If you stop them inside the store, they say,
25 "Oh, I was just on my way to the cashier," or "I
157
1 forgot, I will go right to the cashier, but I
2 hadn't left the store?"
3 A. No.
4 Q. That doesn't add some reasonable doubt as to
5 whether or not they actually had the intent to
6 deprive the owner of lawful possession?
7 A. No. What you described has not happened.
8 Q. On this day, before you first saw the females in
9 the infant department when you were just
10 walking, had anyone told you where to be that
11 day or were you just on your own?
12 A. We just go ahead and roam the store.
13 Q. So on this particular day you were roaming the
14 store?
15 A. I am all over.
16 Q. All over the store?
17 A. Yes, sir.
18 Q. You hadn't been directed by store management to
19 go to any particular area that day?
20 A. No, sir.
21 Q. On the intercom are there various codes that are
22 used to identify incidents that may be underway
23 in the store?
24 A. We have a code that they will broadcast if a
25 theft has occurred, or if there is a problem in
158
1 an area.
2 Q. Is there a code that describes the suspect or
3 the person that may be involved in it?
4 A. No. When they broadcast -- what we are talking
5 about is a Code 99, and that alerts us, and
6 that's part of our job description, and when we
7 hear a Code 99, we will go directly to that
8 area, because we don't know what is going on.
9 Q. If there is a suspect in the store, somebody who
10 is suspected of having stolen something, or is
11 stealing something, or in the past having stolen
12 something, is there a code that can be used to
13 identify whether it is a man or a woman?
14 A. Yes, sir.
15 Q. What is that code?
16 A. Well, there's a couple of codes that we use as
17 police officers. Code 1 would be a white male,
18 Code 2 would be a white female, Code 3 would be
19 a black male, and Code 4 would be a black
20 female.
21 Q. Are there any other identification codes such as
22 that?
23 A. In addition?
24 Q. In addition to the 1 through 4, do you have a
25 Code 5?
159
1 A. Yes, Hispanic.
2 Q. Hispanic male, and 6 would be Hispanic female?
3 A. We would just go ahead and say Code 5 female.
4 Q. 5 means Hispanic, male or female?
5 A. Yes, sir.
6 Q. What does Code 6 mean?
7 A. I have no idea.
8 Q. Those are the five codes that you know of that
9 are used as characteristic identifiers?
10 A. Yes, sir.
11 Q. In addition to writing up the report, which is
12 Wilson Deposition Exhibit 1, did you create any
13 other documents concerning this incident
14 involving these two females?
15 A. No, sir.
16 Q. Did you make an entry in the security incident
17 log book?
18 A. I don't believe so.
19 Q. Why not?
20 A. It's not required.
21 Q. When is it required to make an entry into the
22 security incident log book?
23 A. It's been very lax. If I would get a shoplifter
24 and I would be doing the paperwork, and the
25 store would close, and if I have to go sign a
160
1 complaint, I might not go back and do the log on
2 it.
3 Q. What kinds of incidents would normally be put
4 into the incident log book?
5 A. You can put anything in there.
6 Q. Anything that happens?
7 A. Anything.
8 Q. Anything that might result in some claim against
9 the store at a later date, like somebody falls
10 down, an injury?
11 A. That could be one. Another one would be
12 assisting a lost person, lost child, stolen
13 credit cards, things of that nature.
14 Q. Anything you may want a record on in case
15 something later develops concerning it?
16 A. I don't know on Dillard's.
17 Q. What instructions were you giving as to what
18 kinds of incidents you should put in the
19 incident log?
20 A. There wasn't.
21 Q. What do you consider to be an incident where
22 they are being placed in the security incident
23 log book?
24 A. I usually don't put stuff in it.
25 Q. If you make an arrest, do you also usually not
161
1 record that arrest in the security incident log
2 book?
3 A. Correct.
4 Q. This rolled up item of dark color that you
5 believe the young female may have stolen, did
6 you believe that that was Dillard's merchandise?
7 A. Yes, sir.
8 Q. What about it caused you to believe it was
9 Dillard's merchandise?
10 A. Because when I first observed the young female
11 she never had anything rolled up in her hand.
12 While she was there looking in the area of the
13 Polo section, suddenly she had a rolled up item
14 in her hand, and she never had it prior.
15 Q. Did you have her in continuous observation
16 during that 15 minutes you were observing her?
17 A. Yes, I did.
18 Q. Was it at sometime during that 15 minutes that
19 you first observed the rolled up item?
20 A. Yes, sir.
21 Q. Do you recall how far into that 15-minute
22 observational period you first noticed the
23 rolled up item?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Was it midway or further into the observation
162
1 period?
2 A. I cannot recall.
3 Q. There was never a moment when you didn't have
4 her in view, is that correct?
5 A. That's correct.
6 Q. Not even three seconds?
7 A. Except when she went into the fitting room area.
8 Q. But that was after the other female had come
9 back?
10 A. Yes, sir.
11 Q. I am talking now about the 15 minutes when she
12 was there alone and you were observing her, is
13 that correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. She was never out of your sight for as little as
16 three seconds?
17 A. She could have been for three seconds.
18 Q. Ten seconds? How many times was she out of your
19 direct observation during that 15 minutes?
20 A. Oh, I can't recall, but I might have looked down
21 at a clothing rack, to see where I am going
22 because I am moving, but still trying to keep a
23 visual on her.
24 Q. Never for more than just a few seconds was she
25 out of your view?
163
1 A. Correct.
2 Q. You were trying to keep her under close
3 observation?
4 A. Yes, sir.
5 Q. During this 15-minute period, would you say that
6 you had her under tight surveillance?
7 A. Yes, sir.
8 Q. Would you say that during this 15-minute period
9 you had her under constant observation?
10 A. Yes, sir.
11 Q. Would you say that you were successful in
12 keeping her under constant observation?
13 A. You need to define successful.
14 Q. Did you, in fact, keep her under constant
15 observation?
16 A. Yes, I did.
17 (Discussion off the record.)
18 Q. (By Mr. Benson) When you first approached the
19 two females when you stepped in front of them is
20 when I believe you said you were speaking to the
21 older female, and it's when you accused the
22 younger female of having been observed placing
23 something in her coat?
24 A. No. I spoke to both of them.
25 Q. You spoke to both of them simultaneously?
164
1 A. Yes, sir.
2 Q. So the younger female could have heard you
3 accusing her of placing something in her coat,
4 or she should have been able to hear it?
5 A. She did hear me, yes, sir.
6 Q. When you accused her of placing something in
7 her, coat it's your testimony that she did not
8 respond, is that correct?
9 A. Correct. No words came from her.
10 Q. She didn't protest to you that you had made a
11 mistake or she hadn't done it?
12 A. No, sir.
13 Q. After you had searched the bag and decided to
14 depart the area, you didn't apologize to them
15 for having stopped them, did you?
16 A. No, sir. I was never given a chance.
17 Q. It was because the older woman was doing all the
18 talking?
19 A. Yes, sir.
20 Q. And you didn't hold up your hand and say,
21 "Ma'am, ma'am, stop. I am story. I made a
22 mistake?"
23 A. I tried to speak but she would not allow me
24 to --
25 Q. Get a word in edgewise?
165
1 A. Yes, sir.
2 Q. Is that correct?
3 A. Yes, sir.
4 Q. When Pam Fitzgerel reported that nothing was in
5 the dressing room, you recall this, that she
6 reported this to you?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. The fact that nothing was in the dressing room,
9 was that suspicious? You don't understand the
10 question? I see this puzzled look on your face.
11 A. It's not suspicious that there is nothing in
12 there.
13 Q. Did it either confirm or counter your prior
14 suspicion that shoplifting might be underway?
15 A. It confirmed, by not finding that dark rolled up
16 item in that fitting room.
17 Q. Has it been your practice that when items are
18 shoplifted that often the shoplifter removes the
19 price tag or the identifying tag before
20 shoplifting it?
21 A. Yes, sir.
22 Q. That is common, is it not?
23 A. It's both ways.
24 Q. They do it both ways?
25 A. Yes.
166
1 Q. If Pam Fitzgerel had found the price tag or the
2 identifying tag in the dressing room, that would
3 have been very suspicious, would it not?
4 A. I don't know just with the tag, because there is
5 a lot of stuff from other people that go in
6 there and they might accidentally rip something
7 off, not a sales tag, but a clothing tag.
8 Q. So either the absence or presence of the price
9 tag for an item in a dressing room is not
10 suspicious, just in and of itself?
11 A. Yes, unless I know that, you know, it was
12 totally clean of no tags laying on the floor.
13 Q. Has it been your observation that when customers
14 are shopping for items that are on a hanger that
15 they customarily -- either the sales associates
16 at the cashier desk removes the hanger, or the
17 shopper himself or herself removes the hanger?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. That's customary?
20 A. Yes, sir.
21 Q. So when these two females came out of the
22 dressing room and the younger female put a
23 hanger down as they went up to the cashier's
24 register, that is customary practice?
25 A. Yes, sir.
167
1 Q. That in and of itself is not suspicious?
2 A. It can be.
3 Q. In and of itself, just that alone, is not
4 suspicious?
5 A. No, sir.
6 Q. You say it can be suspicious. Why would that
7 make you suspicious, somebody coming out of a
8 dressing room and putting down a hanger without
9 clothing on it?
10 A. If I have watched them take in a lot of items
11 and I know exactly how many items they had, and
12 I can compare what they purchased, and how many
13 hangers were found in a fitting room or hanging
14 on a rack.
15 Q. Were you made suspicious by the fact that the
16 young female when she came out put down an empty
17 hanger?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Why did you put it in your report?
20 A. Because that's what I observed.
21 Q. When you identify yourself to a suspect as
22 Dillard's security, what do you do if the
23 suspect doesn't stop to talk to you?
24 A. Keep following them and try to get ahold of mall
25 security.
168
1 Q. Aren't you mall -- no, mall security as opposed
2 to Dillard's security?
3 A. Correct.
4 Q. That's what you would do if they were outside of
5 Dillard's?
6 A. Yes, sir.
7 Q. What would you do if the person was inside of
8 Dillard's but refused to stop and talk to you?
9 A. I can't physically detain them just to talk to
10 them.
11 Q. If you suspect they have stolen something?
12 A. If I suspect, then I can detain them for
13 Overland Park Police Department.
14 Q. If the person doesn't stop --
15 A. Yes, sir.
16 Q. -- you could take ahold of their arm or
17 physically detain them in some way?
18 A. Yes, sir.
19 Q. That's what you would do if you believed that
20 the suspect had stolen something?
21 A. Yes, sir.
22 Q. If the person resisted, you would use such force
23 as was necessary to overcome the resistance?
24 A. Yes, sir.
25 Q. You have been trained in that, I take it?
169
1 A. Yes, sir.
2 Q. If necessary, you would call for help?
3 A. Yes, sir.
4 Q. If necessary you would call for Overland Park
5 Police, or you would call when the time -- when
6 you had time to place the call?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Are you occasionally called by sales associates
9 who ask you to come to their department because
10 of suspicious behavior?
11 A. Yes, sir.
12 Q. Have sales associates ever asked you to come
13 when no suspicious acts have been carried out,
14 but just because a sales associates believes
15 that a shopper appears suspicious? I am trying
16 to make it -- you don't understand the question,
17 I can tell. Let me try again.
18 I am trying to make a distinction
19 between suspicious conduct and suspicious
20 appearance. Do you know what I mean by the two?
21 A. Yes, sir.
22 Q. Have you ever been called by a sales associates
23 to come because of what the associate believed
24 was suspicious appearance that was not related
25 to any suspicious conduct?
170
1 A. No.
2 Q. Sales associates have only called you for
3 assistance when they observed suspicious
4 conduct?
5 A. Yes, sir.
6 Q. Never solely on the basis of suspicious
7 appearance?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Yes, that's correct?
10 A. Yes, that's correct.
11 Q. They have never called you, yes, that's correct?
12 A. That's correct.
13 Q. That was my fault for asking the question
14 backwards.
15 Have you ever heard a complaint by
16 African-American shoppers that they are
17 subjected to tighter surveillance at the
18 Dillard's in Oak Park than are other shoppers?
19 A. No, sir.
20 Q. Have you ever heard that as being an issue at
21 Dillard's?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Has it ever been discussed with you prior to
24 this lawsuit being filed?
25 A. No, sir.
171
1 Q. Have you ever heard any other security officers
2 say that they are careful not to stop
3 African-Americans solely because of their race?
4 A. No, sir.
5 Q. It's just never an issue?
6 A. No, sir. It's not an issue.
7 Q. Are you aware of any complaints having been
8 brought by African-Americans concerning their
9 treatment at Dillard's because of their race,
10 discriminatory treatment? I am referring to
11 shoppers, not to employees?
12 A. No, sir.
13 Q. Have you ever been called to investigate what
14 turned out to be an incident in which a shopper
15 believed she or he had been discriminated
16 against in some way because of his or her race?
17 A. No. I need to back up. I have been called to
18 an area before where there is only one
19 associate, and there might be ten people coming
20 through the area, and they just wanted
21 additional security.
22 Q. Not because of the appearance of any of those
23 ten people, but because of the numbers of
24 customers so out-numbered the associate?
25 A. Yes, it's the numbers.
172
1 Q. Do you know what is meant by the phrase loss
2 prevention? Have you heard that phrase used?
3 A. I have heard it used.
4 Q. Have you ever received any specific training in
5 loss prevention?
6 A. No, except just on-the-job training.
7 Q. At Dillard's?
8 A. Yes, sir.
9 Q. That on-the-job training would be provided to
10 you by fellow security officers with more
11 experience than you?
12 A. Yes, sir.
13 Q. Have you ever had any specific training in
14 private security work other than the on-the-job
15 training at Dillard's?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Have you ever had any specific training in
18 retail security other than the on-the-job
19 training at Dillard's?
20 A. No.
21 Q. On April 5th, 1996, when you were working at
22 Dillard's as a security officer, were you
23 carrying your weapon?
24 A. Yes, sir.
25 Q. Do you carry it completely concealed?
173
1 A. Yes, sir.
2 Q. Where do you carry it?
3 A. I could either carry it on my back here, on my
4 holster, or I will carry it in my right front
5 pocket.
6 Q. Under your shirt in the back?
7 A. Yes, sir. Never exposed.
8 Q. So anyone you were talking to would not know for
9 sure that you had a weapon?
10 A. That's correct.
11 Q. During this incident on April 5th your weapon
12 was never exposed, was it?
13 A. No, sir.
14 Q. Let me ask the question better. On the April
15 5th date, was your weapon ever exposed?
16 A. No, sir, it was concealed.
17 Q. I asked that backwards again. Sorry.
18 Do you know whether or not in recent
19 years Dillard's has ever been cautioned by
20 anyone about overly aggressive security tactics
21 being used against shoppers?
22 A. No, sir.
23 Q. Do you know whether or not Dillard's has ever
24 been cautioned by anyone about security officers
25 being overly aggressive in that they stop
174
1 shoppers without first meeting Dillard's
2 requirements for evidence or suspicion of
3 wrongdoing?
4 A. No, sir.
5 Q. Has Dillard's ever cautioned you that in any
6 instances you have not followed Dillard's rules
7 or procedures?
8 A. No, sir.
9 Q. Has Dillard's ever cautioned you that you have
10 failed to follow the requirements of your job
11 objectives?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Do you know whether or not anyone at Dillard's
14 has ever reviewed this April 5th incident we
15 have been talking about here today with respect
16 to determining if your conduct met the
17 objectives, rules and procedures of Dillard's?
18 A. I have no idea. Well, Marvie Dirks is the one
19 that gets my report, so she apparently has
20 reviewed my report.
21 Q. You are not aware of any conclusions that she
22 has come to after reviewing your reports?
23 A. No, sir.
24 Q. Has anything been said to you, either favorable
25 or unfavorable, about your conduct on this April
175
1 5th, 1996, incident by Dillard's employees?
2 A. No, sir.
3 Q. Do you know whether or not Dillard's provides
4 any training with respect to dealing with
5 customers of different racial backgrounds?
6 A. I have no idea.
7 Q. If so, you have not participated in any, is that
8 correct?
9 A. That's correct.
10 Q. Do you know what is meant by the phrase cultural
11 diversity training?
12 A. I have heard the term.
13 Q. What does it mean to you?
14 A. It's the treatment of people in general.
15 Q. Do you know what cultural diversity training
16 consists of?
17 A. No, sir.
18 Q. Are you familiar with the phrase sensitivity
19 training?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Do you know what sensitivity training consists
22 of?
23 A. Dealing with people.
24 Q. What the training consists of, about sensitivity
25 training, how the training goes on, what is
176
1 done?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Have you ever participated in sensitivity
4 training?
5 A. I don't think so.
6 Q. Have you ever participated in cultural diversity
7 training?
8 A. I cannot recall.
9 Q. Does Kansas Highway Patrol offer any cultural
10 diversity training programs?
11 A. I cannot recall.
12 Q. If it does, have you participated in any of
13 them?
14 A. I cannot recall all the training that I have
15 had.
16 Q. Is most of your activity on the job at Dillard's
17 self-initiated as opposed to being responsive to
18 calls for assistance?
19 A. Self-initiated.
20 Q. Let's go back for a minute to your belief that
21 the younger of the two females was, in fact,
22 stealing some item when you stopped her. Do you
23 have a belief as to whether or not the two adult
24 females were working together to steal an item
25 from Dillard's?
177
1 A. I do not know.
2 Q. At the time you stopped them, you stopped both
3 of them, correct?
4 A. Yes, sir.
5 Q. In this particular instance why did you not
6 allow the adults to depart the store before you
7 stopped them?
8 A. Because I wanted to check the bag with the
9 receipt of Dillard's while they were still
10 inside Dillard's. And I was still inside
11 Dillard's, I identified myself as Dillard's
12 security.
13 Q. Why did you want to check it inside Dillard's as
14 opposed to outside the door?
15 A. Because they were still inside our store, and I
16 wanted to check.
17 Q. Did they appear to be heading for the exit when
18 you stopped them?
19 A. Yes, sir.
20 Q. Why didn't you wait to let them get outside
21 before you checked them?
22 A. I just wanted to stop them inside the store and
23 visit with them.
24 Q. Why did you want to stop them inside the store
25 and visit with them?
178
1 A. I just did.
2 Q. No particular reason?
3 A. I wanted to stop them inside the store, and
4 explain what was told to me, and that I could
5 verify what they had in their sack right then
6 and there.
7 Q. I know that's what you did. Now, I want to know
8 why you did it there.
9 A. I just explained why.
10 Q. I missed it. Why did you stop them inside the
11 store?
12 A. Because I wanted to stay inside our store and go
13 ahead and verify right then and there. If I had
14 a problem with a receipt, I would have to bring
15 them back inside the store. I did not want to
16 detain them of not being able to allow them to
17 do shopping outside the store of Dillard's.
18 Q. Did you believe you had more authority to stop
19 them while they were inside Dillard's as opposed
20 to outside Dillard's?
21 A. No, sir.
22 Q. Do you think they were more likely to stop
23 voluntarily inside Dillard's as opposed to
24 outside Dillard's, or would it be the same?
25 A. I just chose to stop them inside the store.
179
1 Q. Have you ever stopped shoppers inside the
2 Dillard's store and checked their bag and found
3 merchandise for which there was no receipt?
4 A. Yes, sir.
5 Q. What do you do then?
6 A. If we know that they have shoplifted and they
7 have stayed inside our store, we will detain
8 them and call Overland Park Police Department
9 and advise them of our situation, and it's up to
10 them what they want to do. If they are going to
11 charge them or just let them go on their way.
12 Q. Does Overland Park Police sometimes not charge
13 them because they were stopped inside the store?
14 A. Yes, sir.
15 Q. So the stopping inside the store then serves the
16 purpose not of prosecuting the wrong doer, but
17 of recovering the merchandise, is that correct?
18 MS. KOCH: I object to the extent it
19 mischaracterizes what the witness said. He
20 said sometimes Overland Park will charge them
21 and sometime the won't.
22 MR. BENSON: Well, I asked another
23 question. Let me go back and make sure it is
24 clear.
25 Q. (By Mr. Benson) In the case where Overland Park
180
1 decides not to prosecute them, I asked you if
2 that happened, and you said yes, sometimes?
3 A. Yes, sir.
4 Q. In those instances where you have stopped them
5 inside the store with merchandise for which they
6 do not have a receipt and Overland Park chooses
7 not to file charges against them, your stopping
8 them inside the store serves the store purpose
9 of recovering merchandise, is that correct?
10 A. Yes, sir.
11 Q. Do you have any approximate idea of what
12 percentage the African-American population is in
13 Johnson County, Kansas?
14 A. No, sir.
15 Q. Do you have any idea of what the approximate
16 percentage of African-American shoppers at
17 Dillard's in Oak Park Mall is?
18 A. No, sir.
19 Q. Do you have any reason to believe that it
20 substantially differs from the black population
21 residents in the county.
22 MS. KOCH: Object to the question as
23 lacking proper foundation because the witness
24 said he doesn't know the percentage in the
25 county.
181
1 Q. (By Mr. Benson) I'm not asking the percentage.
2 I will repeat the question. Mr. Wilson, do you
3 know whether or not there is any significant
4 difference in the percentage of blacks who shop
5 at Oak Park Mall in Johnson County compared to
6 the percentage of blacks who reside in Johnson
7 County?
8 MS. KOCH: Object to the question as
9 calling for speculation.
10 Q. (By Mr. Benson) I asked if you know. Do you
11 know?
12 A. No, I do not.
13 Q. Do you have any reason to believe there is a
14 substantial difference between the race of
15 shoppers at Dillard's in Oak Park Mall and the
16 race of the residents of Johnson County?
17 MS. KOCH: I object to the form of the
18 question as calling for speculation.
19 MR. BENSON: I asked him if he knows.
20 A. No, I do not know.
21 Q. (By Mr. Benson) Do you know any facts or
22 circumstances that could cause the percentages
23 of African-American shoppers at Dillard's at Oak
24 Park Mall to differ substantially from the
25 percentage of blacks resident in Johnson County?
182
1 MS. KOCH: Object to the form of the
2 question as calling for speculation.
3 Q. (By Mr. Benson) Do you know?
4 A. No, I do not.
5 Q. Of the 12 highway patrol troopers for whom you
6 have direct line supervision, are any of them
7 African-Americans?
8 A. Yes, sir.
9 Q. How many?
10 A. One.
11 Q. How long has that trooper been with the Kansas
12 Highway Patrol?
13 A. I believe he started in May of last year.
14 Q. This is the one that just came off probation you
15 were referring to?
16 A. Yes, one of them, yes, sir, because I had three.
17 Q. Three who came off probation?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. One was an African-American?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Does he work at Dillard's?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. As a security officer?
24 A. Yes, sir.
25 Q. What is his name?
183
1 A. Greg Smith.
2 Q. Have you ever had any conversations with Greg
3 Smith about how African-American shoppers are
4 treated at Dillard's in Oak Park Mall?
5 A. No, sir.
6 Q. Has the number of hours you worked at Dillard's
7 increased, decreased or stayed about the same
8 since you first started?
9 A. I am in a unique situation.
10 Q. What is unique about your situation?
11 A. That I only take this job with Dillard's as idle
12 time that I have on my hands. My wife and I do
13 not have kids, and so when she is working, why
14 sit idle on my hands at home. So I get out and
15 do this. I am not dependent on this Dillard's
16 job for the income.
17 Q. You consider this to be an interesting way to
18 spend your time?
19 A. I enjoy it.
20 Q. In part you do it for the enjoyment you get out
21 of it, is that correct?
22 A. No. Providing my services to Dillard's.
23 Q. You enjoy doing that?
24 A. I enjoy all my jobs.
25 Q. Do you know who Bill Evans is?
184
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Who is he?
3 A. He is an Overland Park motor officer.
4 Q. Have you had any contact with him?
5 A. Yes, sir.
6 Q. Have you discussed this particular case with
7 him?
8 A. No, sir.
9 Q. What is his race?
10 A. He is an older white gentleman.
11 Q. Have you ever discussed with him the treatment
12 of African-Americans at Dillard's in Oak Park?
13 A. No, sir.
14 Q. Are you familiar with the term suspect profile?
15 A. Yes, sir.
16 Q. What does that term mean to you?
17 A. That varies because being on the Highway Patrol
18 we are looking at people all the time. We are
19 looking for people who are suspected of carrying
20 illegal drugs, and I have heard that used
21 before, profiling couriers.
22 Q. A suspect profile would be a set of
23 characteristics that gives suspicion that a
24 crime may be being committed?
25 A. I don't think you can say crime being committed.
185
1 It can just cause you to look at somebody a
2 little bit closer, maybe.
3 Q. A suspect profile would be a set of
4 characteristics that would cause a law
5 enforcement officer to look at a person more
6 closely, is that a fair definition?
7 A. Would you repeat that?
8 MR. BENSON: Would you read that
9 back?
10 (The pending question was read by the
11 reporter.)
12 A. I believe it's a situation at hand that you have
13 to look at. You can't just look at ten people
14 and pick something out to say I am going to
15 watch you because you have that yellow tie on.
16 I need to have something that is inconsistent,
17 out of the normal.
18 Q. (By Mr. Benson) Since you do not regularly use
19 Dillard's security incident log book, Dillard's
20 would not have any way of keeping track of the
21 number of times you searched a customer's bag
22 and found nothing amiss, is that correct?
23 A. Unless a report was written.
24 Q. You wouldn't normally write reports on those,
25 though, would you?
186
1 A. No, sir.
2 Q. Is that correct?
3 A. That's correct.
4 Q. Do other security officers use the security
5 incident department log book more frequently
6 than you?
7 A. I have no idea. I never look at it.
8 Q. When you write reports, do you always note the
9 race of the person with whom you are dealing in
10 a written report?
11 A. Yes, sir.
12 Q. Why is it that you always write the race of the
13 person you are dealing with when you are writing
14 an incident report?
15 A. There are a couple of reasons. It helps refresh
16 me memory, and it also tricks that attorneys try
17 to play coming into court, they might try to
18 bring in a decoy and have me identify that
19 person. It refreshes my memory, so those are
20 the reasons.
21 Q. If you wrote down Hispanic female, and the
22 defense attorney brought in an Hispanic female,
23 they could still get away with it?
24 A. They could.
25 Q. Providing the race of a person narrows the
187
1 options for the defense attorney, is that
2 correct?
3 A. I can't speak for the defense.
4 Q. For what other reasons do you note the race of
5 persons with whom you have dealt when you fill
6 out a Dillard's security report?
7 A. As I stated, it helps refresh my memory, and
8 also on the Dillard's security report, they have
9 got a space on here for the race and the sex on
10 this report.
11 Q. And you wrote up there where it says Subject No.
12 1, do you see that?
13 A. Yes, sir.
14 Q. What did you write?
15 A. Black.
16 Q. A "B" for black.
17 A. Yes, sir.
18 Q. And for Subject No. 2?
19 A. "B" for back.
20 Q. Is that how you write your Bs?
21 A. Yes, sir.
22 Q. So you had identified the subjects as both being
23 blacks, in the narrative, why was it necessary
24 also to write black to describe the females?
25 A. It's just doing police work for 23 years.
188
1 Q. That's the way it's always done?
2 A. That's the way I apparently have done my
3 reports, and it's just not necessarily for a
4 black female, I could put a white male referring
5 to -- in my reports.
6 Q. It's just your practice that any time you
7 identify someone in a report you put that
8 person's race in?
9 A. There might have been times I could have omitted
10 it, but I try to put it down.
11 Q. Is it your practice to always put down the race
12 when the person is a minority?
13 A. It doesn't matter.
14 Q. If it's omitted, is it the assumption, where it
15 does not say the race of person, that that
16 person was a white?
17 A. Oh, no.
18 Q. If you omitted it somewhere it would have been
19 an accidental omission?
20 A. Yes, sir.
21 Q. And the person that you were identifying could
22 have been white or could have been black or
23 Hispanic?
24 A. Yes, sir.
25 Q. Do you know Security Officer Cleveland?
189
1 A. Yes, sir.
2 Q. Did you talk to him after you had stopped the
3 two females in this case but before you wrote
4 your report?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Did he walk up to you where you were just as you
7 were finishing your contact with the two
8 females?
9 A. I don't know where I met up with Officer
10 Cleveland.
11 Q. Had he observed any of the incident?
12 A. I don't believe so.
13 Q. Do you know who Byron Pierce is?
14 A. Yes, sir.
15 Q. Who is he?
16 A. He is an Overland Park -- I believe a detective.
17 Q. Does he work part-time security at Dillard's?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Do you know who Greg Powell is?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Who is he?
22 A. He is an Overland Park police officer.
23 Q. Does he work part-time security at Dillard's?
24 A. No. He used to.
25 Q. Did he work part-time security at Dillard's
190
1 during any period of time you were also there?
2 A. Yes, sir.
3 Q. Do you know who David Cole is?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Do you know who Michael Imber is?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Have you had any discussions with Byron Pierce
8 or Greg Powell about the treatment of
9 African-American customers at Dillard's?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Do you know Byron Pierce's wife?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Never met her?
14 A. No, sir.
15 Q. Let me restate that. Have you ever met her?
16 A. No, I have never met her.
17 MR. BENSON: Let's take a short
18 break.
19 (A recess was taken.)
20 Q. (By Mr. Benson) Mr. Wilson, you said that you
21 mainly work at Dillard's when your wife is
22 working other jobs, is that correct?
23 A. No, she has a job.
24 Q. You mainly work at Dillard's when your wife is
25 working at her job?
191
1 A. Yes, sir.
2 Q. Where does she work?
3 A. She is a general manager for an Applebee's
4 Restaurant.
5 Q. Does she work regular hours or regular shifts?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Hers float around, too?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Do you recall what day of the week this April 5,
10 1996, incident was?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Was it a weekend?
13 A. I don't know.
14 Q. Do you recall whether your wife was working at
15 Applebee's that day?
16 A. No, I don't.
17 Q. Were you present when the Overland Park police
18 officers responded to a call in this case?
19 A. I talked to an officer at some point.
20 Q. After you had written your report?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Did you talk to an officer on another day after
23 this incident?
24 A. I don't believe so.
25 Q. You went into this vacant office to write your
192
1 report immediately after you broke off contact
2 with the two females, correct?
3 A. Yes, sir.
4 Q. So you didn't talk to the officer from Overland
5 Park until after you had written your report, is
6 that correct?
7 A. I can't recall.
8 Q. Did the Overland Park police officer come to
9 this vacant office where you were located?
10 A. I can't recall.
11 Q. Do you recall who you talked to at Overland
12 Park?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Male or female?
15 A. I can't recall.
16 Q. Patrol officer or sergeant?
17 A. I can't recall.
18 Q. What is Mr. Martens' title?
19 A. At Dillard's?
20 Q. Yes.
21 A. Security officer.
22 Q. He has the same position you do?
23 A. Yes, sir.
24 Q. Are you familiar with a report which he has
25 prepared and updated that compiles incident
193
1 reports?
2 A. I have seen a list of names.
3 Q. That's all you have seen is a list of names?
4 A. Yes.
5 MR. BENSON: Off the record.
6 (Discussion off the record.)
7 Q. (By Mr. Benson) When did you see it?
8 A. I have seen it numerous times.
9 Q. Is it used in the course of your work at
10 Dillard's?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. How is it used?
13 A. If I stop a person that has been detained and we
14 are waiting for Overland Park Police Department,
15 we are going to check that and see if they have
16 been barred from Dillard's. And if they are
17 barred, then we will go ahead and do a criminal
18 trespass complaint.
19 Q. Are any of those data computerized?
20 A. I have no idea how he keeps that.
21 Q. When you want to check, and when you are
22 waiting for Overland Park to appear, and you
23 want to check to see if a person has been barred
24 from Dillard's, do you check manual records or
25 computer?
194
1 A. No, it's on numerous pages.
2 Q. You have to read down through the list looking
3 for the name?
4 A. Alphabetical order, yes, sir.
5 Q. Did you do that in this case involving Hampton
6 or Cooper?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Does Dillard's keep or compile any other lists
9 of suspected shoplifters other than this Martens
10 list?
11 A. Not that I am aware of.
12 Q. Does it post names or photographs in the
13 security room?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Does this Martens list tell who is barred from
16 Dillard's?
17 A. No.
18 Q. So when you look down the Martens list while you
19 have someone in detention waiting for Overland
20 Park police to arrive, how can you tell whether
21 or not they have been barred from Dillard's?
22 A. We have to look up in a file, try and pull that
23 case file.
24 Q. You first look for the name on the Martens list,
25 correct?
195
1 A. Yes, sir.
2 Q. And if you find the name on the list there will
3 be a case file number there, on the Martens
4 list?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And you use that number to go pull the file
7 itself?
8 A. By name.
9 Q. By name?
10 A. Yes, sir.
11 Q. Are the files listed alphabetically?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. You can just look through the files directly
14 without having to go to the Martens list,
15 couldn't you?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Why do you go to the Martens list?
18 A. That's what I use.
19 Q. Does Dillard's keep any other list except in
20 individual files of the names of persons who are
21 barred from Dillard's?
22 A. I have no idea.
23 Q. Are you allowed, given the rules of your
24 employment with the Kansas Highway Patrol, to
25 use any Kansas Highway Patrol data or
196
1 information in your part-time job at Dillard's?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Have you ever used Kansas Highway Patrol
4 information in your job at Dillard's?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. In doing so, did you violate the Kansas Highway
7 Patrol rule or regulation prohibiting that use?
8 A. I sure did.
9 Q. When was that?
10 A. I have no idea. I ran a tag, license plate tag.
11 Q. Was that reported to the Kansas Highway Patrol?
12 A. As?
13 Q. As a you having used the Kansas Highway Patrol
14 information in your job at Dillard's?
15 Let me rephrase the question. Do any
16 of your supervisors at the Kansas Highway Patrol
17 know that you violated the Kansas Highway Patrol
18 rule or regulation in using Kansas Highway
19 Patrol data in your part-time job at Dillard's?
20 A. I will restate. I didn't violate, I just ran a
21 tag, and I can run a tag as a police officer.
22 From Dillard's, I have run a tag. So I did not
23 -- no, I not violate. I am sorry. I
24 misunderstood your question.
25 Q. Does the Kansas Highway Patrol have a rule or
197
1 regulation that is intended to prevent Kansas
2 Highway Patrol officers from using Kansas
3 Highway Patrol data or resources during their
4 off duty jobs?
5 A. I have no idea.
6 Q. Has anyone ever warned you about not using
7 Kansas Highway Patrol data or resources in your
8 part-time job at Dillard's?
9 A. No.
10 Q. In 1977 were you suspended by the Kansas Highway
11 Patrol for a short period of time?
12 A. 15 days.
13 Q. What was that for?
14 A. For an injury that I had that I said I had it on
15 duty and my conscious got to me and I went to
16 the doctor and said I didn't do it on duty. So
17 I went to my supervisor and told him, and I took
18 15 days suspension.
19 Q. The suspension was for falsely reporting you had
20 been injured on duty when, in fact, you had not
21 been injured on duty?
22 A. Correct.
23 Q. Have you ever reported to Dillard's any acts or
24 conduct by Dillard's security officers that you
25 believed were improper or inappropriate?
198
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. When most recently?
3 A. I cannot recall when.
4 Q. In the two plus years that you have been
5 employed by Dillard's, on how many occasions
6 have you reported inappropriate or improper
7 conduct by other security officers?
8 A. I think maybe once or twice.
9 Q. Are the officers about whom you reported still
10 employed at Dillard's as security officers?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. What kinds of incidents did you report?
13 A. One was with a mall security officer, they were
14 arguing. I was a mediator for that, just saying
15 -- you know, two stubborn people, and I jumped
16 in between.
17 Q. Did that involve wrongdoing by the Dillard's
18 security officer?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Or improper conduct or inappropriate conduct?
21 A. I thought it is inappropriate conduct toward
22 another fellow officer.
23 Q. Was it in public or private?
24 A. It was in public.
25 Q. What other incidents involving wrongdoing,
199
1 improper or inappropriate conduct, have you
2 reported to Dillard's?
3 A. Some laziness of officers.
4 Q. What kind of laziness or how did this laziness
5 manifest itself?
6 A. I am a firm believer if you are working for
7 somebody you are getting paid to do the job
8 instead of standing around not doing your job.
9 Q. Standing around talking?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You reported that by other security officers?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. On how many occasions?
14 A. Like I said, once.
15 Q. This incident with the mall security officer
16 arguing with the Dillard's security officer,
17 about when did that take place, within the last
18 year or so?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Where did it take place?
21 A. On the second level of the mall.
22 Q. Who was the Dillard's security officer involved?
23 A. Tommy Catania.
24 Q. How do you spell the last name?
25 A. C-a-t-a-n-i-a.
200
1 Q. Who was the mall security officer?
2 A. Officer Andy Black from the Overland Park Police
3 Department.
4 Q. He was working part time as a mall security
5 officer?
6 A. Yes, sir.
7 Q. Was the argument about Catania having stopped
8 some shoplifting suspects?
9 A. No.
10 Q. What was it about?
11 A. We observed some people shoplifting in another
12 store, called mall security and mall security
13 didn't want to do anything about it. One
14 thought, well, the other one needs to do it, et
15 cetera.
16 Q. You say "we," you and Catania, is that the "we"
17 you were referring to?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. You and Catania observed some shoplifting going
20 on in another store, not Dillard's?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. What were you doing in the other store?
23 A. We weren't. We were out in the mall, public
24 access.
25 Q. And looked into the other store?
201
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And saw shoplifting occur?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Had you followed the suspect from Dillard's?
5 A. I believe so.
6 Q. Were there two suspects involved?
7 A. I cannot recall how many.
8 Q. They were black females, right?
9 A. I cannot recall.
10 Q. You don't recall the race?
11 A. No, sir.
12 Q. Did you write a report about this incident?
13 A. No, sir.
14 Q. Could they have been black females?
15 A. Yes, they could have been.
16 Q. When you reported this incident did you report
17 it in writing or verbally?
18 A. Verbally.
19 Q. To whom?
20 A. Other officers.
21 Q. Did you report it to anybody in a supervisory
22 position?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Earlier when I asked you if you had ever
25 reported any wrongdoing, improper or
202
1 inappropriate conduct, you took my question to
2 mean reported it to anybody, not just to a
3 supervisor?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Let me reask that question, then, but focus it
6 on reporting it to a supervisor.
7 Have you ever reported to a Dillard's
8 supervisor any wrongdoing, improper or
9 inappropriate conduct by a Dillard's security
10 officer?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. What incident was that?
13 A. Laziness.
14 Q. You reported on one or two occasion, I believe
15 you said, laziness to a supervisor?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. What security officer did that involve, or do
18 you recall?
19 A. I don't recall.
20 Q. This incident involving the argument in public
21 between a mall security officer and a Dillard's
22 security officer, that took place within the
23 last 12 months, that you acted as a mediator in,
24 did you report that to any supervisor of
25 Dillard's?
203
1 A. I can't recall.
2 Q. What fellow security officers did you report
3 that to?
4 A. I can't recall that.
5 Q. Do you know if any document exists concerning
6 that incident?
7 A. I do not know.
8 Q. Were the two suspects ever approached by any
9 security officer, to your knowledge?
10 A. I can't recall on that.
11 Q. What had caused you to suspect that the persons
12 you followed from Dillard's out in the mall and
13 into the other store required you to follow
14 them?
15 A. I don't know if I followed them or I just
16 happened to come upon Officer Catania at that
17 time.
18 Q. If they had been followed, Catania was the one
19 who followed them out of Dillard's?
20 A. He could have.
21 Q. When you are on duty you are supposed to be in
22 Dillard's, are you not, not working the mall?
23 A. We had a little latitude.
24 Q. You sometimes do go out in the mall?
25 A. We cross from one side to the other side, from
204
1 the north store to the south store.
2 Q. Is that what you were doing on this occasion?
3 A. Boy, I can't recall.
4 Q. From the time you clock in to the time you clock
5 out at Dillard's do you consider yourself to be
6 on duty?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Do you take breaks?
9 A. Occasional.
10 Q. On average how long is a shift at Dillard's when
11 you are working part time?
12 A. There not a normal time for me.
13 Q. Are they usually at least four or six hours long
14 unless you are called away by an emergency?
15 A. I can't give you a time. I have had anywhere
16 from two hours up to 13 hours.
17 Q. How many security officers are usually on duty
18 at any given time at Dillard's?
19 A. It's hard to say.
20 Q. What is the minimum to the maximum?
21 A. I'm not in charge of that.
22 Q. Other than Exhibits 1 and 2, do you have any
23 other written instructions as to what your job
24 duties are?
25 A. I would have to check my personal file at home.
205
1 Q. Would you do that and if you find anything would
2 you report it to Ms. Koch?
3 A. I sure will.
4 Q. Could you do that within the next day or two?
5 A. I will be home in the next day or two.
6 MS. KOCH: We believe you have
7 everything there is, but we will check and see
8 if there is anything additional.
9 A. I think it was just two items like this.
10 MS. KOCH: I do note just for the
11 record that one of the items was dated 2-97. I
12 believe we also provided you with something
13 dated something '96.
14 (Wilson Deposition Exhibit No. 5 was
15 marked for identification.)
16 Q. (By Mr. Benson) Now I am showing you Deposition
17 Exhibit 5, which is the objectives document, but
18 it has the date down at the bottom of 2-27-96,
19 do you see that?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. As best as you can recall now, do we have a
22 complete set of the written job duties and
23 descriptions?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. A couple of more details. Kathy is so smart she
206
1 can always think of more questions.
2 When the two females were at the
3 checkout counter, the cashier, back in infants,
4 did you notice which one of the adults made the
5 purchases or paid for it?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Do you recall who was carrying the Dillard's bag
8 when they left the cashier's station?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Did you ever see anyone put anything into the
11 Dillard's bag after they left the cashier's
12 station?
13 A. No.
14 Q. This dark fabric item that was rolled up that
15 the young female had when you were observing
16 her, did you notice anything glittery on it that
17 might have been a zipper?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Did you notice any price tags or other
20 identifying tags on it?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Did you notice anything about it whatsoever
23 other than it was dark and fabric and rolled up
24 and the dimensions you have earlier described?
25 A. No.
207
1 (Discussion off the record.)
2 Q. (By Mr. Benson) Now, at the end, when you were
3 talking to the two of them -- after you had
4 stopped them, and the older woman was getting
5 louder and louder and louder, did you ever tell
6 her that if she didn't calm down you would have
7 her forcibly ejected from the store?
8 A. Not forcibly.
9 Q. Did you tell her that you would have her
10 ejected?
11 A. No. I told her Overland Park Police Department
12 would be called in, that was Dillard's policy.
13 They would be told the situation, and we would
14 ask for them to leave the store.
15 Q. When you stepped in front of the two women as
16 they were approaching the exit and said, "Hello,
17 I am Dillard's security," then the next thing
18 you told them was someone had seen them
19 concealing some item, concealing some object
20 inside a coat?
21 A. Inside a coat.
22 Q. And then you said, "I would like to look in your
23 bag," and you reached for the bag?
24 A. She handed it to me.
25 Q. She handed it to you and you took the bag?
208
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And nothing was said at that time, is that
3 correct? You said, "I would like to look in the
4 bag," and her answer was she handed you the bag?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And then as you were taking the items out is
7 when she started talking and gradually got
8 louder and louder and louder?
9 A. I believe before I took the items out.
10 Q. But after you had the bag --
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. -- she started saying we shop here and we
13 purchased some items and forth, is that correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. That was the first thing that the older woman
16 had said after you stopped her, is that correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Have you discussed this incident with Jack
19 Rodgers?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. When did you discuss it with him?
22 A. Advised him I had been notified of the situation
23 and I was going to be going in for a
24 deposition.
25 Q. Did you talk to him about what had happened?
209
1 A. No.
2 Q. You just told him about the lawsuit and you were
3 going to be deposed?
4 A. Yes, sir.
5 Q. Did he ask you any questions about what had
6 happened?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Does Jack Rodgers exercise any day-to-day
9 supervision over the security detachment at
10 Dillard's?
11 A. He is the store -- he is the one in charge of
12 that store.
13 Q. But does he personally involve himself in
14 security matters or does he leave that to Marvie
15 Dirks and others?
16 A. He has been involved in some.
17 Q. Have you ever discussed with him the rules,
18 regulations and objectives of security work at
19 Dillard's?
20 A. No, sir. I would like to clarify my answer on
21 Mr. Rodgers' involvement.
22 Q. Okay.
23 A. That's about cameras, about buying additional
24 security cameras on that part.
25 Q. Do you know who Susan Hickey is?
210
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Who is she, what is her employment at Dillard's,
3 or what was it?
4 A. I think she was an assistant ASM.
5 Q. Did you ever discuss this incident with her?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. When did you discuss it with her?
8 A. The day.
9 Q. The day of the incident?
10 A. Yes, sir.
11 Q. After you had written your report?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. After you had talked to the Overland Park
14 police?
15 A. I cannot say exactly when.
16 Q. Did she initiate the conversation or did you?
17 A. I cannot recall.
18 Q. Had she observed any aspect of it, of the
19 incident? Had she seen either Hampton or Cooper
20 or your interaction with them?
21 A. No, not that I can recall.
22 Q. Was she the ASM on duty at that time?
23 A. I believe she was, and she was called to
24 customer service.
25 Q. Did you speak with her after she had been called
211
1 to customer service?
2 A. Yes, I had.
3 Q. You didn't brief her before she went to customer
4 service, you talked to her after she had been at
5 customer service?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Did she ask you what had happened?
8 A. I believe so.
9 Q. What did you tell her?
10 A. Exactly what transpired.
11 Q. Did you give her a copy of your report at that
12 time?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Did you tell her whether or not you believed
15 that either Hampton or Cooper had, in fact,
16 stolen merchandise from Dillard's?
17 A. I gave her the facts as I have stated today.
18 Q. You didn't state one way or another whether you
19 believe either of them had stolen any
20 merchandise?
21 A. I cannot recall exactly what I told to her.
22 MR. BENSON: No further questions.
23 MS. KOCH: I have a couple of
24 questions.
25 EXAMINATION BY MS. KOCH:
212
1 Q. Mr. Wilson, Mr. Benson asked you earlier about
2 situations where you will physically detain
3 somebody in the Dillard's store. Was the
4 situation with Ms. Cooper and Ms. Hampton on
5 April 5th, 1996, one of the situations you were
6 talking about where you would physically detain
7 someone?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Why not?
10 A. Because this was an investigative stage, to
11 report to them what I observed, and what was
12 told to me, what was observed from an associate.
13 Q. Is there a difference between an apprehension
14 and an investigative stop?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. What is the difference?
17 A. Apprehension would be the people would not be
18 free to leave, they would be held for the
19 Overland Park Police Department to arrive. The
20 investigative part is the investigative part.
21 They are not detained.
22 Q. Was the situation with Ms. Cooper and Ms.
23 Hampton on April 5th, 1996, an apprehension?
24 A. No.
25 Q. What would you have done, if anything, if Ms.
213
1 Hampton and Ms. Cooper had refused to stop when
2 you approached them on April 5th, 1996?
3 A. I would have continued walking with them to try
4 and tell them why I was trying to talk to them.
5 Q. What if they had refused to give you the
6 shopping bag?
7 A. There was nothing I could have done.
8 Q. Would you have let them go?
9 A. Yes.
10 MS. KOCH: I have no further questions
11 at this time.
12 EXAMINATION BY MR. BENSON:
13 Q. Mr. Wilson, why is there nothing you could have
14 done?
15 A. Because it was an investigative stage.
16 Q. By investigative stage, meaning that you were
17 not certain that any item had been stolen?
18 A. We believed an item had been stolen.
19 Q. What are the factual differences between an
20 investigative stop and an apprehension?
21 A. Well, in the investigative stage the people are
22 free to leave.
23 Q. That's in your mind, you know that if they
24 wanted to keep going, you would let them go?
25 A. Yes, sir.
214
1 Q. And that's an investigative stop?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. In an apprehension, you know, in your mind, if
4 they try to leave you are going to try to hold
5 on to them and Overland Park police, is that
6 correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Are there any other differences between an
9 apprehension and an investigative stop?
10 A. No.
11 Q. And the facts that justify one or the other,
12 everything else, all the other circumstances are
13 the same?
14 A. Well, I don't know what circumstances you are
15 talking about.
16 Q. I am asking you to describe circumstances that
17 would distinguish between what is an
18 investigative stop and what is an apprehension?
19 A. If I saw the person conceal an item, my eyes
20 personally, I would make an apprehension, that I
21 know it is concealed on their person, that is
22 with my eyes.
23 Q. If a sales associate reported to you that they
24 had seen with their eyes a concealment on the
25 person, is that sufficient reason for an
215
1 apprehension?
2 A. You have to go into more detail. If they saw
3 them put it in sacks, loading up -- they saw
4 them take a pile of clothes and put them in a
5 sack, they are walking out of the store, I would
6 make an apprehension.
7 Q. What if the sales associates says, "I saw two
8 women shopping at the jewelry counter, and where
9 the sales associate that was waiting on them was
10 distracted, one of them picked up a watch and
11 put it under her arm, and there they are, they
12 are heading toward the exit." Is that
13 sufficient information for you to make an
14 apprehension?
15 A. No.
16 Q. You would just stop them and say, "May I look
17 under your arm," and if they said no, you would
18 let them keep going?
19 A. I would tell them the situation.
20 Q. If the person said, "No, you can't look under my
21 arm, I am leaving," and started walking toward
22 the door, you would let them go?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And the reason for that is you didn't see it
25 with your eyes, only the sales associate saw it
216
1 with her eyes?
2 A. As I stated earlier, the circumstances on a
3 whole lot of items compared to one item.
4 Q. Does it have to do with the value of the
5 items?
6 A. I don't know the value.
7 Q. Why would you be concerned about a whole lot of
8 inexpensive item as opposed to, say, one
9 expensive item?
10 A. I don't know what each item is when an associate
11 tells me they saw a person pick up a pile of
12 clothes, put them in a sack, and watched the
13 person barely able to carry the bag out of the
14 store, versus one item, a piece of jewelry, that
15 it could have been the person's own jewelry that
16 they had in their pocket or their hand.
17 Q. Sales associates says, "I saw that woman who is
18 heading toward the exit right now pick up a
19 Dillard's watch with a price tag still on it,
20 while her partner was distracting the sales
21 associate who was waiting on her, and conceal
22 that watch under her arm, and she is heading to
23 the door now," you would not make an
24 apprehension?
25 A. I would do an investigative talk to them.
217
1 Q. If, in the course of that investigation, the
2 suspect said, "No, you can't talk to me, and no,
3 you can't look under my arm, I am leaving," and
4 started walking around you to head for the exit,
5 would you make an apprehension?
6 A. No.
7 Q. That is because it was only one item involved
8 and not six items?
9 A. Like I said, on the incident.
10 Q. If the sale associates reported to you and said,
11 "I just saw that woman who is heading for the
12 exit right now carrying Dillard's bag pick up a
13 pile of T-shirts and put them in the bag, and
14 she is leaving with them in her bag right now,"
15 would you make an apprehension on that basis?
16 A. I would make a stop.
17 Q. And if the person said, "No, you can't look in
18 my bag," when you made the stop, and attempted
19 to walk around you and head for the exit would
20 you make an apprehension?
21 A. I would detain that person.
22 Q. Because she had stolen six items instead of one,
23 six T-shirts instead of one watch?
24 A. Like I said, the quantity, and each situation is
25 unique.
218
1 MR. BENSON: I have no further
2 questions.
3 MS. KOCH: No further questions.
4 (The deposition concluded at 3:00
5 p.m.)
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24 ______________________
Thomas J. Wilson
25 JLW
220
1 IN RE: Hampton vs. Dillard's
2
3 ____ I certify that I have read my testimony
4 and request that NO changes be made.
5
6 ____ I certify that I have read my testimony
7 and request that the above changes be
8 made.
9
10
11 ______________________
12 Thomas J. Wilson
13
14
15 Subscribed and sworn to before me
16 this ____ day of ____________, 19____
17
18
19 ______________________
20 Notary Public
21 State of _____________
22 County of ____________
23 My commission expires ____________
24
25 JLW
221
1 C E R T I F I C A T E
2 I, Judy L. Whitehouse, a Notary Public of
3 the State of Kansas, do hereby certify:
4 That prior to being examined, the witness
5 was first duly sworn;
6 That said testimony was taken down by me in
7 shorthand at the time and place hereinbefore stated
8 and was thereafter reduced to typewriting under my
9 direction;
10 That the foregoing transcript is a true
11 record of the testimony given by said witness;
12 That I am not a relative or employee or
13 attorney or counsel of any of the parties or a
14 relative or employee of such attorney or counsel or
15 financially interested in the action.
16 Witness my hand and seal this 19th day of
17 September, 1997.
18
19
20
21
22
23 Judy L. Whitehouse
24 Notary Public, State of Kansas
25 My commission expires 8/24/00