Document provided by Benson & Associates
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE DISTRICT OF KANSAS
3 PAULA DARLENE HAMPTON and
DEMETRIA COOPER,
4
Plaintiffs,
5
vs. No. 97-2182-KHV
6
DILLARD'S DEPARTMENT
7 STORES, INC.,
8 Defendant.
9
10 DEPOSITION OF MICHAEL IMBER, a witness,
taken on behalf of the Plaintiffs, pursuant to
11 Notice, on the 11th day of September, 1997, at the
Overland Park Police Department, 12400 Foster,
12 Overland Park, Kansas, before
13 JUDY L. WHITEHOUSE,
14 of AAA Reporting Company, a Notary Public of the
State of Kansas.
15
APPEARANCES
16
For the Plaintiffs:
17 MS. KATHY D. FINNELL
ARTHUR BENSON & ASSOCIATES
18 1000 Walnut Street, Suite 1125
Kansas City, Missouri 64106-2123
19
20 For the Defendant:
MS. ELAINE DRODGE KOCH
21 SPENCER, FANE, BRITT & BROWNE
1000 Walnut Street, Suite 1400
22 Kansas City, Missouri 64106
23 For the City of Overland Park:
MR. MICHAEL R. SANTOS
24 ATTORNEY AT LAW
12400 Foster
25 Overland Park, Kansas
2
1 STIPULATION
2 It was stipulated by and between counsel
3 that the presentment of this deposition to the
4 witness by the officer is expressly waived, and that
5 if said deposition is not signed by the witness by
6 the time of the commencement of the trial, it may be
7 used as though signed.
8
9 INDEX
10 WITNESS: Geraldine Jones PAGE:
11 Examination by Ms. Finnell 3
Examination by Ms. Koch 56
12 Reexamination by Ms. Finnell 65
Examination by Mr. Santos 68
13
EXHIBITS (NONE)
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
3
1 (The deposition commenced at 3:10
2 p.m.)
3 MICHAEL IMBER,
4 a witness, being first duly sworn, testified
5 under oath as follows:
6 EXAMINATION BY MS. FINNELL:
7 Q. Good afternoon, Sergeant Imber. My name is
8 Kathy Finnell, and I am an attorney for the
9 plaintiffs in this case, Paula Hampton and
10 Demetria Cooper.
11 Would you please state your address?
12 Home is fine.
13 A. [Reply deleted]
14 Q. Describe your educational background, beginning
15 with the location and date of your graduation
16 from high school?
17 A. I graduated high school in May of 1978, Blue
18 Valley High School.
19 Q. Any colleges?
20 A. Yes, graduated from Mid-America Nazarene
21 College in 1990.
22 Q. What degree?
23 A. Bachelor of arts in management.
24 Q. Any other college?
25 A. I have about nine hours of post-graduate work at
4
1 Baker University.
2 Q. How long have you worked with Overland Park?
3 A. A little over 14 years.
4 Q. Prior working with Overland Park, did you work
5 in any other law enforcement capacity?
6 A. Yes, I did.
7 Q. Where was that?
8 A. I was a reserve officer with the Johnson County
9 Park Police.
10 Q. When was that?
11 A. That would have been 1980 through 1983.
12 Q. Is it after that position that you became an
13 Overland Park police officer?
14 A. Right.
15 Q. Anything else law enforcement oriented?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Have you ever been deposed before?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Okay. Basically a deposition is a question and
20 answer scenario, some of what we have been doing
21 just now. Everything that we all say will be
22 taken down by the court reporter. It's the same
23 as if we were in court. You have been sworn to
24 tell the truth. If you don't understand any of
25 my questions just say so, and I will try to
5
1 rephrase it or clarify it in a manner in which
2 you can understand it. There may be depositions
3 that occur from time to time -- I said
4 depositions, but I meant objections that occur
5 from time to time. Those objections are being
6 made for the record. Unless you are instructed
7 by your attorney, Mr. Santos, you can go ahead
8 and answer the questions once the objections
9 have been made by the attorneys and responded
10 to.
11 It's very important that you resist
12 the human tendency to answer questions with nods
13 and/or other body language or phrases like
14 uh-huh and huh-uhs, because there is no way to
15 distinguish those type responses on the record
16 on just plain paper, the inflection in your
17 voice won't be there.
18 If you have any questions or if you
19 don't understand something during this process,
20 talk with your attorney, unless it's a question
21 that I have asked you that you don't understand,
22 okay?
23 A. Okay.
24 Q. Did you do anything in preparation for this
25 deposition?
6
1 MR. SANTOS: Other than talk to your
2 attorney.
3 Q. (By Ms. Finnell) Other than talk with your
4 attorney. Because one of the others things
5 along with the questions I am asking you I'm not
6 asking you to discuss any matters that you have
7 discussed with your attorney. Those matters are
8 considered privileged.
9 A. The only thing I did was last night I looked
10 through income tax returns to determine exactly
11 what period of time I was employed with
12 Dillard's because I didn't have a good
13 recollection.
14 Q. Are you no longer working security for
15 Dillard's?
16 A. That's correct.
17 Q. When did you work security for Dillard's?
18 A. I began in 1987 and quit, I believe, it was in
19 1994.
20 Q. In addition to Dillard's have worked any other
21 retail oriented security off duty?
22 A. Yes, I have.
23 Q. Where was that?
24 A. Well, to this day I work for the Oak Park Mall.
25 Q. Oak Park Mall security?
7
1 A. Right.
2 Q. When did you start working with them?
3 A. I believe that was in 1984, as soon as I got
4 through with my probationary year here at the
5 police department.
6 Q. Any other off duty retail oriented security that
7 you have worked?
8 A. Well, I am currently employed by AMF West
9 Bowling Center.
10 Q. During the time that you worked for Dillard's,
11 what exactly did you do?
12 A. Uniformed security.
13 Q. Is it the same for Oak Park?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. There is basically an overlap between the time
16 you worked for Dillard's and your current
17 employment as security for Oak Park Mall, is
18 that correct?
19 A. That's correct.
20 Q. When you started working for Dillard's, can you
21 describe any training or orientation you
22 received not including any human relations
23 personal information document that you would
24 have filled out?
25 A. The only training I received was when the
8
1 decision was made to hire off duty police
2 officers, I was part of the first group of
3 officers to be trained by the old Dillard's
4 security people. And I had, I want to say,
5 maybe three or four weeks of on-the-job training
6 with them.
7 Q. So prior to the hiring of off duty police
8 officers there was a -- was it a security or
9 loss prevention --
10 A. It was a civilian loss prevention force, typical
11 of a lot of department stores.
12 Q. Are you aware of why that transition occurred
13 from the civilian loss prevention?
14 A. Somewhat.
15 Q. Why did it?
16 A. One of the former civilian security people
17 apparently intercepted a letter that was written
18 from top management of Dillard's to store
19 managers or somebody. I remember seeing the
20 letter and there was a comment in there that the
21 comment that Dillard's wanted to get away from
22 Barney -- from the Andy Griffith Show -- Barney
23 type security and go to professional police
24 officers. They thought it would be better for
25 the organization.
9
1 Q. Better in what ways, do you know?
2 A. I don't recall. I mean this has been 11 or 12
3 years ago that I took a quick look at this
4 letter that was shown to me. I felt bad for the
5 security people.
6 Q. Did you receive any security policies or
7 procedures?
8 A. Yes, I did.
9 Q. How was it that you received that information?
10 A. I don't recall if I received them when I
11 initially applied and was hired, I want to think
12 -- I believe they came much later. We were all
13 required to produce a copy of our driver's
14 license and Social Security card and some other
15 information, and I believe it was at that time
16 that we signed for an employee handbook.
17 Q. When Dillard's transitioned from the civilian
18 loss prevention style security to police
19 officers, were they all uniformed police
20 officers?
21 A. Initially, yes.
22 Q. Did that change at some point?
23 A. Yes, it did.
24 Q. Do you know when it changed?
25 A. I don't think it was in the first year or two, I
10
1 believe it was much later, but I really couldn't
2 give you any kind of specific date or even year.
3 But we were -- it was all Overland Park
4 uniformed officers initially.
5 Q. Do you know why there was a transition from --
6 and when we talk about uniform, we are talking
7 about the transition from uniformed to also
8 using plain clothes, is that your understanding
9 of what we are talking about?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Do you know why there was a transition?
12 A. No, I don't.
13 Q. When you worked at Dillard's, who was your
14 supervisor? And I don't mean the supervisor in
15 terms of the department coordinator.
16 A. Boy, I believe the first supervisor was a lady
17 by the name of Sand or Sands. She was later
18 transferred to a different store. She was my
19 first supervisor. I have seen several go
20 through there. And I had a male supervisor and
21 then Marvie Dirks was a supervisor. So I had at
22 least three that I can recall.
23 Q. And the last one being Marvie Dirks?
24 A. That's correct. Dee Sands, I believe that's
25 what her name was.
11
1 Q. She would have been your supervisor when you
2 joined Dillard's in '87?
3 A. Correct.
4 Q. I am going to show you what's been marked in a
5 prior deposition, this is a duplicate copy of
6 it, Deposition Exhibit No. 1. Is that the
7 document that you were referring to when you
8 said you were given rules and regulations -- I'm
9 sorry, policies and procedures?
10 A. I don't know if this is the exact same one
11 because I don't recall exactly what it looked
12 like, but some of the wording on here is very
13 similar to what I recall reading and signing,
14 but I can't state for the record this is
15 absolutely what I signed X number of years ago.
16 Q. And you would have only signed it once?
17 A. Possibly more. I mean it could have been
18 updated, revised. In fact, I think I probably
19 did go through this more than once.
20 Q. Were you ever given any objectives for security
21 at Dillard's Oak Park?
22 A. Not that I recall.
23 Q. How involved, if at all, was Dee Sands in
24 security activities at Dillard's during the time
25 you worked there?
12
1 A. You want my opinion?
2 Q. Yes.
3 A. I thought she was very involved.
4 Q. Why do you think that, or did you think that?
5 A. Well, I think she had a pretty good security
6 sense about her. If I recall, her son was one
7 of the civilian Dillard's security staff who
8 ultimately lost his job or was transferred when
9 the off duty officers came aboard, and I thought
10 that she was very much pro police and a good
11 person to work for.
12 Q. And the male supervisor whose name you don't
13 know who was the second supervisor, to what
14 extent, if at all, was he involved with security
15 activities?
16 A. Well, I didn't have the kind of relationship
17 with him that I had with Dee Sands, so I really
18 don't know if he was actively involved or not.
19 By the way, the male supervisor is the
20 manager of the Wal-Mart store at 119th and
21 Metcalf.
22 Q. During the time that you worked in security when
23 Marvie Dirks was supervisor, to what extent, if
24 any, was she involved with the security
25 activity?
13
1 A. She was very involved.
2 Q. How so?
3 A. Well, she implemented evaluations for the
4 security officers. She would meet with us, I
5 want to say, semi-annually just to talk about
6 our job, you know, just how she felt, you know,
7 her opinion of how we were doing our job, and
8 just basically security in general. I
9 supervised the fraud and forgery unit, and she
10 would solicit a lot of my advice and
11 recommendations on ways of cutting down on
12 forged checks and unlawful uses of credit cards,
13 things of that nature. She seemed really
14 interested in it.
15 Q. Did she have the same good security sense that
16 you described with Dee?
17 A. I think so.
18 Q. Is there anything about your experience working
19 for Dillard's security off duty that would lead
20 you to conclude that African-American shoppers
21 are treated differently than white shoppers?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. What?
24 A. Shortly after Dillard's began hiring officers
25 from some different agencies, this is when the
14
1 decision was made to allow plain clothes
2 officers, there were several instances where
3 both when I was working for Dillard's or working
4 for the mall, because at that time years ago we
5 were all tied to the same radio frequency, so by
6 working the mall I could hear the security guys
7 from Dillard's speaking and vice versa. That's
8 really not the case currently, but it was back
9 then. And numerous times over a period of years
10 I would overhear radio traffic something to the
11 effect of we have a couple of Code 3s coming in
12 the such and such doors.
13 Q. What is a Code 3?
14 A. When I first heard this, I didn't know what it
15 was. And I went to the security people, I don't
16 know who it was it was so many years ago, and I
17 said, "What do you mean that there are a couple
18 of Code 3s or Code 4s coming in the door?" That
19 was their radio code that they used on their job
20 like the Highway Patrol to distinguish a black
21 female or a black male.
22 Q. Okay. Do you know -- you talked about shortly
23 after the hiring of the officers from other
24 jurisdictions, do you know about when that
25 occurred?
15
1 A. Let's see, I started in '87. This would just be
2 a guess, but '89 or '90.
3 Q. Would that be the same time frame that you heard
4 this, we have a couple of Code 3s coming in X or
5 Y door, over the radio frequency?
6 A. Yes. See we don't have those codes here in
7 Overland Park. That's why I wasn't familiar
8 with we have a couple of Code 3s. I had no idea
9 what it meant, so I inquired, "What do you mean
10 there are a couple of Code 3s?" That is when
11 they said that means black female or black male.
12 Q. What is it about those codes that made you feel
13 that African-American customers were being
14 treated differently from white customers?
15 A. Well, in all the years I have worked at the
16 mall, I never ever heard them say, we have a
17 couple Code 1 or 2s, referring to white males or
18 white females. So I was always, I guess, in my
19 mind questioning why is it necessary for one
20 security officer to alert other security
21 officers that someone is coming from the front
22 door because they are black.
23 Q. When I asked you why you felt that
24 African-American customers were treated
25 differently than white customers, you said there
16
1 were several incidents?
2 A. Yes, there were several. I can't even tell you
3 how many times. There were countless times over
4 the years that I heard this kind of radio
5 traffic, but what else bothered me and
6 eventually led to me resigning from Dillard's
7 was that on a regular basis I would get paged
8 over the radio paging system there to call a
9 certain extension where an associate would be,
10 and the typical scenario would be, "Can you come
11 to my area? I have a couple of suspicious
12 people here." And I would respond and make
13 contact with the associate, and the majority of
14 the time it would be a black male or black
15 female.
16 When I inquired of the associate, why
17 did you call me, why are these people
18 suspicious, they didn't really have an answer.
19 And eventually I began questioning the
20 associates on the phone, and unless I heard
21 something that rose to the point of they are up
22 to something, I didn't even respond, because I
23 didn't want to get involved in having somebody
24 accusing me of harassment.
25 Q. You said that's one of the reasons why you
17
1 resigned from Dillard's?
2 A. That's correct.
3 Q. Did you talk to anyone in management in
4 reference to your --
5 A. I did. I knew you were going ask that question,
6 but for the life of me, I cannot think of when
7 or exactly who I talked to, but it was someone
8 in management that I went to complain to that I
9 thought it was -- that there was liability
10 involved and, you know, responding to these
11 areas just because an associate called and said
12 there is somebody suspicious here, they needed
13 to be a little more definitive on why this
14 person was suspicious, you know, were they
15 looking around like they wanted to steal
16 something, but just the mere fact there are two
17 African-American men or women in the area, I
18 wasn't going to respond.
19 Q. When the associates would first call you and say
20 there was someone suspicious in their
21 department, how did race come up?
22 A. Usually it didn't come up until I got there, and
23 then I would make contact with this associate
24 and they would point out the suspicious person
25 or persons in their area, and I would say,
18
1 "Okay. Why are they suspicious?"
2 And 99 percent of the time I didn't
3 get an answer, or the answer was, "Well, I don't
4 know. I just don't like the look of them," or
5 "I get this bad feeling," And I left. I didn't
6 stick around.
7 Q. Did this happen throughout the time that you
8 worked off duty at Dillard's?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. You said countless times?
11 A. Yes, I couldn't put a number on it. Dozens over
12 the years.
13 Q. Any other reasons, in addition to the calls that
14 you received from the associates based on the
15 presence of African-Americans in their
16 departments, for your belief that
17 African-American shoppers were treated
18 differently?
19 A. Well, I didn't like the way officers from other
20 jurisdictions were treating African-Americans
21 who were apprehended for various crimes. In my
22 opinion they were not treat as professionally as
23 the arrestees who were white.
24 Q. What do you mean?
25 A. Well, I never saw a single incident of abuse or
19
1 I would have taken action on it, but just the
2 way they communicated with the
3 African-Americans. It's really hard to
4 describe. They just weren't as professional,
5 they didn't use -- they weren't as polite, they
6 kind of copped an attitude, I guess would be a
7 good way to describe it. And it was typically
8 the officers who worked for the Kansas Highway
9 Patrol.
10 Q. They were polite and professional and without
11 attitudes when dealing with white suspects?
12 A. Well, not always. Sometimes everybody has a bad
13 day, but I just saw kind of a pattern that when
14 it was an African-American who was apprehended
15 they just weren't treated -- you know, they get
16 them up to the security area and they just
17 weren't very professional with them. They
18 didn't treat them the same way they treated most
19 of the whites that were apprehended.
20 Q. What were some of the things that they did that
21 leads you to conclude that they weren't
22 professional?
23 A. Use of profanity, the tone of their voice.
24 Q. Anything else?
25 A. Nothing else really comes to mind.
20
1 Q. These are in reference to African-American
2 shoppers who had actually been apprehended for
3 shoplifting, is what you just described?
4 A. Either apprehended for shoplifting or suspected
5 of shoplifting, and people who they didn't have
6 good cases on, and they would ask these people
7 to leave, and some people would take objection
8 to being ordered or instructed to leave the
9 premises, and they would argue with the security
10 officers. There was a noticeable difference, if
11 it was a couple of two white women versus two
12 African-American women how they were treated.
13 Q. What is that noticeable difference?
14 A. Typically the white customers were treated with
15 more patience, less use of profanity if things
16 got heated, tone of voice, a little quieter, but
17 with the African-Americans the officers tended
18 to be a little more vocal, louder.
19 Q. Are you aware of any complaints that were made
20 by African-American shoppers that they were
21 being treated differently --
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. I have to tell you one more rule, and this is
24 for the court reporter who is taking down
25 everything we say. If we talk over each other
21
1 then she can't take it down at the same time.
2 One of her hands takes down everything you say
3 and one takes down everything I say, I just
4 learned that today.
5 A. I apologize.
6 Q. Okay. Why do you say that?
7 A. There was an incident, I want to say within the
8 last couple of years, where Dillard's security
9 -- there was a Trooper Sanchez involved in
10 pursuing an alleged shoplifter off the mall
11 premises. And during the ordeal, there was some
12 type of altercation out on the road, and Trooper
13 Sanchez used his gun to strike the alleged
14 suspect's car leaving a dent. And it was my
15 understanding that there was some litigation
16 involved because I know I got called down to an
17 attorney's office, not give a deposition but
18 just to discuss with this attorney what facts I
19 knew.
20 Q. Did you actually see this?
21 A. No, but I wasn't working for Dillard's at the
22 time. Because I left in '94, but I was working
23 as the Oak Park Mall uniformed security officer,
24 so my role in this incident was as I heard what
25 was going on I went to a telephone to call the
22
1 Overland Park police dispatcher to let them know
2 that Dillard's security had left the property
3 and was in pursuit of this woman.
4 Q. And heard, what do you mean by as you heard what
5 was going on?
6 A. I could overhear it on the radio what was
7 happening, because at that time, as I mentioned
8 earlier, we were all tied to the same radio
9 frequency.
10 Q. You said this was after you had left Dillard's,
11 so this was after '94?
12 A. That's correct. I want to say this was just
13 within the last couple of years. It wasn't very
14 long ago.
15 Q. And the individuals who Officer Sanchez was
16 pursuing were African-American?
17 A. That's correct.
18 Q. As Oak Park Mall security was it your
19 responsibility to notify -- your role, I think
20 you described it, was to call the dispatcher at
21 Overland Park?
22 A. It wasn't my responsibility necessarily, but I
23 thought it would be best for everyone involved
24 that our dispatcher know what was going on due
25 to the fact that there was a pursuit involved.
23
1 Q. And a weapon drawn?
2 A. I didn't know about the weapon at that time, I
3 was just reporting to my dispatcher that
4 security had left mall property, which they are
5 not supposed to do. And I gave the directions
6 to the communications people as I heard them
7 over my radio.
8 Q. Can you think of any other incident where you
9 believe African-American shoppers were treated
10 differently or shoplifting suspects were treated
11 differently?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Did any African-American shoppers ever complain
14 to you that they felt like they were being
15 mistreated, harassed or followed by security at
16 Dillard's?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Can you describe the nature of those complaints?
19 A. One just came to mind. Dillard's had taken an
20 African-American female, I believe she was a
21 juvenile, into custody in the north store, and
22 there was some type of altercation between the
23 suspect and the Dillard's security people
24 because they yelled for help, which is what we
25 call an assist the officer, and all the security
24
1 people in the mall will respond to aid the
2 person in trouble. And I recall going back to
3 where the management area is where they had this
4 young lady in custody, and she complained she
5 was roughed up by the Dillard's officers.
6 Q. Did you see any signs?
7 A. No. There was -- well, there were signs that a
8 struggle had occurred, there was no doubt about
9 it, but once everything was okay, and I knew
10 that on duty officers were on the way down to
11 assist, I left.
12 Q. Do you recall the young lady's name?
13 A. No, I don't.
14 Q. Was this while you were working Oak Park Mall
15 security?
16 A. That's correct.
17 Q. Do you know whether it was this year or last
18 year or just sometime after '94?
19 A. It could have been this year or the later part
20 of '96.
21 Q. Were the words "roughed up" the words that the
22 African-American juvenile used?
23 A. No. I believe the words she used was, "They
24 beat me up."
25 Q. Can you describe her?
25
1 A. Oh, boy. Other than African-American, probably
2 16 or 17 years of age. I'm not 100 percent
3 sure, but I think one of the arresting Dillard's
4 officers was a John Schuepbach.
5 Q. Would you have written a report on this
6 incident?
7 A. No, I wouldn't have, no.
8 Q. That's because you were just there as back up at
9 the mall?
10 A. That's correct.
11 Q. Any other complaints that you are aware of by
12 African-American shoppers? Let me ask you this:
13 Have you ever had any complaints from white
14 citizens that they were roughed up or beat up by
15 Dillard's security?
16 A. None that I am aware of.
17 Q. Any other complaints by African-American
18 shoppers that they were discriminated,
19 mistreated, harassed by Dillard's security?
20 A. I can't think of any.
21 Q. Are you familiar with the shoplifting incident
22 that occurred in April of '96 at Dillard's
23 involving any African-American shoppers?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Are you aware of any Dillard's security officers
26
1 that follow suspected shoplifters, look into a
2 bag if they have one, take the merchandise out
3 of the bag, and keep the merchandise if the
4 person doesn't have the receipt?
5 MS. KOCH: Object to the form of the
6 questions as vague.
7 Q. (By Ms. Finnell) I am just asking if you know
8 of any incident where that has occurred?
9 A. Can you repeat it so I make sure I understand
10 it?
11 Q. Dillard's security officer follows someone
12 either inside Dillard's or into the mall area,
13 approaches that person, asks to look into their
14 bag, takes out property, Dillard's property,
15 finds no receipt in the bag, keeps the property,
16 are you aware of any of those types of
17 situations?
18 A. I have seen that occur, but I couldn't tell you
19 who was involved. I recall responding on
20 occasion and seeing the Dillard's security
21 officer tell the person, well, I am going to
22 keep this, and unless you can prove ownership,
23 we are going to keep it.
24 Q. Was the person then allowed to go?
25 A. Yes.
27
1 Q. What was the race of the person?
2 A. African-American.
3 Q. Do you know who the security officer was?
4 A. No, I don't.
5 Q. Do you know about when this occurred?
6 A. Well, it occurred a few times over the course of
7 the last several years, but I don't have a
8 recollection of who the particular officer was.
9 It just --
10 Q. Occurs?
11 A. It occurs, right.
12 Q. This occurred after you left Dillard's in 1994?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. To what extent are shoplifting investigations
15 self-initiated at Dillard's, that you are aware
16 of, by security officers?
17 MS. KOCH: Object to the form of your
18 question as vague.
19 Q. (By Ms. Finnell) Do you know what I mean by
20 self-initiated?
21 A. Well, I think I do.
22 Q. As opposed to responding to a call from an
23 associate based on the officer's own initiative?
24 A. I can say this, when I was employed there
25 initially when we were all in uniform our main
28
1 objective was crime prevention. We weren't
2 really expected to make apprehensions. They
3 wanted high visibility, they wanted the
4 professional looking uniformed officer to keep
5 the potential shoplifters out and make them go
6 somewhere else. With the changeover to the
7 plain clothes, I think that that's a whole
8 different ballgame, and yes, there is probably a
9 lot of self-initiated shoplifting apprehensions.
10 Q. To what extent are the officers allowed to use
11 their own discretion in the manner in which they
12 monitor, investigate, and/or apprehend suspects,
13 and by the officers I am referring to Dillard's
14 security officers?
15 MS. KOCH: Object to the form of
16 question as vague and overly broad.
17 A. It's my understanding there is a lot of
18 discretion that the officers can do whatever it
19 takes. If they observe somebody shoplift they
20 can take the appropriate action to apprehend
21 that person.
22 Q. (By Ms. Finnell) And appropriate is based on
23 their own personal definition, is that what you
24 are saying, or is there some definition of
25 appropriate given?
29
1 MS. KOCH: Object to the question as
2 leading and vague.
3 Q. (By Ms. Finnell) I am not trying to lead you.
4 You used the word appropriate, and I am trying
5 to understand where it came from.
6 A. Just basically, I mean, police officers here in
7 Overland Park we are trained on what probable
8 cause is, we know the elements of what a theft
9 is, and what is a good case. And if I am
10 working Dillard's or anywhere else and I see
11 somebody take something off a rack and stick it
12 in their purse and walk out the door, I believe
13 there is probable cause to stop that person and
14 conduct a shoplifting investigation.
15 Q. Are you familiar, during the time that you
16 worked either as security officer at Dillard's
17 or during the time that you worked at Oak Park
18 Mall, of incidents which you would consider to
19 be bad stops made by Dillard's security of
20 African-American shoppers?
21 MS. KOCH: Object to the form of your
22 question as vague.
23 Q. (By Ms. Finnell) Do you understand what I mean
24 by bad?
25 A. Yes, I think I do. Bad being a lack of probable
30
1 cause?
2 Q. That's a start, yes.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Can you describe those such incidents?
5 A. Generally speaking I can. Over the years there
6 were times that shoppers were stopped, you know,
7 based on not necessarily an observation that the
8 officer saw somebody take something and stick it
9 in their pocket or stick it in their purse, but
10 things like, you know, there is an empty hanger
11 there and I believe that there was something on
12 that hanger 15 minutes ago, so this person must
13 have taken it so I am going to stop them.
14 Q. Based on assumptions made by the officers, not
15 necessarily with basis, is that what you are
16 saying?
17 MS. KOCH: Object to the form of your
18 question as leading.
19 Q. (By Ms. Finnell) I'm not trying to lead you, I
20 just want to --
21 A. Well, it was my understanding while employed at
22 Dillard's that I was not to stop or apprehend a
23 shoplifter unless I actually observed what I
24 perceived to be a violation. It was my
25 understanding that if an associate said, "I
31
1 think I just saw that person steal something," I
2 don't stop them. And even in Dillard's didn't
3 tell me that, that's the way I personally
4 operate.
5 Q. Why is that?
6 A. Well, for liability reasons, mainly.
7 Q. Even if the associate told you they were sure of
8 what they saw?
9 A. That would depend. I mean I would probably need
10 more than that, because, you know, in various
11 places I have worked, Dillard's and elsewhere, I
12 have seen associates say, "I am 100 percent sure
13 that this person stole something," and an
14 investigation later revealed that they were
15 mistaken, so --
16 Q. You just gave the example of customers being
17 stopped based on empty hangers?
18 A. Well, that is just one example, I am sorry.
19 Q. And assumptions based on the presence of the
20 empty hanger are there any other examples in
21 reference to customers being stopped?
22 MS. KOCH: Object to the form of your
23 question as vague.
24 Q. (By Ms. Finnell) And this question is just a
25 follow-up to complete the --
32
1 A. The only --
2 Q. Go ahead.
3 A. Sorry again. The only other example that I can
4 think of would be when a customer would bring
5 several items into a dressing room, and then
6 later when the customer would exit the dressing
7 room if the associate felt that, "Well, I am
8 pretty sure this woman brought in three dresses,
9 but I am only seeing two dresses come out, or
10 there are only two dresses left in the changing
11 room," I saw people stopped for that.
12 Q. African-American customers?
13 A. And white.
14 Q. Okay. Both?
15 A. (Witness nods head.)
16 Q. Are you familiar with any shoplifting suspect
17 bulletin boards or places where pictures of
18 suspects were kept?
19 A. No, I'm not aware of any.
20 Q. Are you familiar with any hit lists that may
21 have been created in reference to shoplifting
22 suspects that Dillard's security may have wanted
23 to highlight or target or pay close attention
24 to?
25 A. No, I am not.
33
1 Q. Are you familiar with any documents that would
2 have tracked arrests of Dillard's suspects?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. How was that type of document used and by whom,
5 if you know?
6 A. Another one of the reasons why I left Dillard's
7 was that Marvie Dirks implemented a change in
8 how we bid our shifts, and that change was --
9 seniority was based on the number of
10 apprehensions. And I 100 percent disagreed with
11 that, and that played a part of the role in my
12 leaving.
13 Q. Why did you disagree with that?
14 A. I don't think it's proper.
15 Q. Why not?
16 A. Because I think with some people, myself
17 excluded, that it's an accelerant or it possibly
18 could motivate some people to make questionable
19 stops and arrests hoping that they are going to
20 have more arrests for that month so they can
21 have a better choice of shifts to work the
22 follow month.
23 Q. When was this change implemented?
24 A. I don't recall the exact date, but I know that I
25 got word of it right before I left employment
34
1 with Dillard's.
2 Q. '94?
3 A. Right.
4 Q. By some people, are you aware of any people in
5 particular that became motivated as you just
6 described?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Were you aware of any increases in the number of
9 stops that were made based on the changes in
10 scheduling?
11 A. No, I never really had any knowledge of how many
12 stops or arrests are made.
13 Q. Based on your experience as a police officer in
14 general, would you agree or disagree that
15 someone's tone of voice -- that an officer's
16 tone of voice can affect whether a person or a
17 suspect or person they are talking with can
18 affect that person's understanding of whether or
19 not they have a choice in whether or not to do
20 something that the officer is telling them to
21 do?
22 MS. KOCH: Object to the form of your
23 question as vague and calling for speculation.
24 Q. (By Ms. Finnell) Based on your experience.
25 A. I would say yes.
35
1 Q. How so?
2 A. Well, I believe an officer's tone of voice, body
3 language, depending on how that individual
4 officer uses it, can convey to a person that
5 maybe they are not free to go when they really
6 are. It can make that person think they are
7 being arrested when they were not being
8 arrested.
9 Q. Do you know of any officers that were ever
10 disciplined based on their contact with a
11 customer at Dillard's, any security officers at
12 Dillard's?
13 A. I have no knowledge of any discipline by
14 Dillard's, I wasn't privy to that.
15 Q. Do you think that is something that would have
16 been discussed between the officers if it had
17 occurred?
18 MS. KOCH: Object to the form of your
19 question as calling for speculation and vague.
20 A. Possibly, but I don't ever recall any
21 conversation with another security officer
22 saying that Marvie yelled at me or I got a
23 letter of reprimand or --
24 Q. I'm not sure if you answered this question or
25 not, if you did I am sure there will be an
36
1 objection.
2 The document that you described
3 earlier that tracked the arrests, did you answer
4 as to how that was used by the security
5 officers?
6 A. Well, the only document that I am aware of is
7 something that is in place to track the number
8 of apprehensions, so Dillard's and Marvie knows
9 that officer so and so made X number of arrests
10 this month. I have never actually seen it. I
11 have heard many officers talk about it.
12 Q. And what you have heard is it tracked it
13 according to the officer?
14 A. It's my understanding that each officer -- it
15 tracks the officer and the total number of
16 apprehensions by that particular officer. And I
17 want to point out that back in '94, I don't know
18 when the exact implementation of it was, but
19 there was some serious discussion going on at
20 that time, and when I started hearing rumors of
21 that discussion, that was one of the deciding
22 factors that I was going to leave.
23 Q. Are you aware of incidents where -- well, while
24 you were working at Dillard's in security what
25 was your understanding of when an incident
37
1 report should be generated?
2 A. When you took police related or law enforcement
3 related action.
4 Q. What is your understanding of police related or
5 law enforcement related action?
6 A. When you have contact with an alleged
7 shoplifter, or any other -- I mean there were
8 times when we would get complaints of
9 homosexuals in the men's room, and if you went
10 in there and made contact with them or made an
11 arrest or something like that, you know, took
12 police action, then we were supposed to do a
13 report on it.
14 Q. Are you aware of incidents that occurred where
15 reports were not generated, and this as it
16 relates to shoplifting suspects at Dillard's?
17 MS. KOCH: I was just going to object
18 to the question as vague.
19 A. I don't have any knowledge of that.
20 Q. (By Ms. Finnell) Based on your experience as a
21 law enforcement officer, but specifically as
22 security for Dillard's, how important was it to
23 be certain that the item that was believed to be
24 stolen was, in fact, Dillard's merchandise.
25 MS. KOCH: I object to the form of
38
1 that question as vague.
2 A. Can you repeat that, please?
3 Q. Sure. Based on your experience as a security
4 officer for Dillard's, how important in a
5 shoplifting investigation was it to be -- how
6 important was it that the item --
7 Same preface, based on your experience
8 as a security officer with Dillard's, to what
9 extent, if any, was it important that the
10 suspected item that was being stolen or
11 concealed was, in fact, Dillard's merchandise?
12 MS. KOCH: Object to the form of the
13 question as vague.
14 A. I think it was pretty important.
15 Q. (By Ms. Finnell) Why is that?
16 A. I mean that's what we were paid to do is to
17 either prevent or apprehend people stealing
18 merchandise belonging to Dillard's.
19 Q. How appropriate, based on your understanding of
20 the rules and procedures for security personnel
21 at Dillard's, would it be to make a stop based
22 on an assumption that the item believed to be
23 concealed was Dillard's?
24 MS. KOCH: Object to the form of your
25 question as vague.
39
1 A. I really don't know how to answer that.
2 MS. KOCH: That's because the question
3 is vague.
4 MS. FINNELL: Not necessarily, but I
5 will rephrase it nevertheless.
6 Q. (By Ms. Finnell) If a customer was not seen to
7 remove an item but was nevertheless seen
8 possessing an item which was never specifically
9 identified as Dillard's merchandise, based on
10 your knowledge and understanding of the rules
11 and procedures for Dillard's security, would it
12 be appropriate to stop that person as a
13 shoplifting suspect?
14 MS. KOCH: I object to the form of
15 that question as vague, calling for speculation
16 and setting forth a hypothetical without
17 appropriate foundation.
18 A. My understanding of the procedures when I was
19 employed with Dillard's was that if it was some
20 other store's clothing that wasn't a concern of
21 mine. If I observed someone attempting or
22 actually stealing merchandise from Dillard's
23 that I was -- I had the authority to take
24 action. That's what I was paid to do.
25 Q. (By Ms. Finnell) If you weren't sure of whether
40
1 it was Dillard's merchandise, what were you to
2 do. What is your understanding of what you were
3 to do?
4 A. As I mentioned earlier I would never stop
5 anyone, unless I had probable cause to believe
6 they had committed a crime.
7 Q. How would your probable cause be affected by any
8 degree of uncertainty as to whether the
9 merchandise or the item, rather, concealed was
10 Dillard's merchandise?
11 MS. KOCH: Object to the form of your
12 question as vague, calling for speculation, and
13 lacking appropriate foundation.
14 Q. (By Ms. Finnell) You can answer.
15 A. I just want to make sure I understand what you
16 are asking. If you have a suspect in the store
17 who may have property from another store other
18 than Dillard's?
19 Q. Just an item of clothing, whether it's theirs or
20 another stores or --
21 A. If I did not see that person take that
22 merchandise from Dillard's, then I'm not going
23 to stop them.
24 Q. Why is that?
25 A. Well, because I was employed to -- number one, I
41
1 probably wouldn't have probable cause to stop
2 them.
3 Q. Why is that?
4 A. Because I didn't actually observe the theft or
5 the alleged theft.
6 Q. What do you mean by the theft, what activity are
7 you referring to by that phrase?
8 A. Well, the taking -- if they have property on
9 them belonging to some other store than
10 Dillard's, and I am inside Dillard's, obviously
11 I couldn't have observed the violation, because
12 I am in there and trying to do my job in
13 Dillard's.
14 Q. If it's their own personal property -- well, I
15 think you have answered it.
16 A. I mean the bottom line is, if I am inside
17 Dillard's working, unless they took something
18 from inside Dillard's that I observed, I'm not
19 stopping them.
20 Q. By took, what do you mean? I know I am being
21 nit-picky, but does that include the actual
22 removal of the property?
23 A. For me it would be taking the product, either
24 concealing it or not concealing it, but
25 attempting to leave the premises. So if they
42
1 took a shirt off the rack and tucked it under
2 their coat and walked out the door into the mall
3 corridor area, then I would stop and make an
4 apprehension.
5 Q. To what extent is exiting, as you just
6 described, important in terms of apprehending
7 shoplifting suspects?
8 MS. KOCH: Object to the form of your
9 question as vague, and I object to the extent
10 you are asking this witness for a legal
11 conclusion.
12 MR. SANTOS: I agree. Obviously, if
13 you are going to ask him for the conclusion as
14 to whether it's legally proper, I object to
15 that, and would direct him not to answer that.
16 If you want to rephrase the question for
17 clarification purposes, fine.
18 Q. (By Ms. Finnell) I'm not really trying to get
19 you to make any legal conclusion. Under what
20 circumstances, if any, did you, during your
21 experience as a security officer for Dillard's,
22 arrest a shoplifting suspect prior to their
23 exiting the store?
24 A. I can't think of any.
25 Q. Any arrest that you made would have been after
43
1 they exited, is that what you are saying?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Why is that?
4 MS. KOCH: Again, I object to the
5 extent you are asking this witness for a legal
6 conclusion.
7 A. Well, my only --
8 Q. (By Ms. Finnell) Wait, wait.
9 MS. KOCH: To the extent you are just
10 asking him for his own beliefs and practices --
11 MS. FINNELL: That is all I am asking.
12 A. That's exactly what it is. My practice when I
13 am employed off duty somewhere is that if I am
14 going to make a shoplifting apprehension, I am
15 going to make as or after they have exited that
16 particular store.
17 Q. (By Ms. Finnell) Okay.
18 A. That's how I like to operate.
19 Q. Have you had any interaction at all with Jack
20 Rodgers the manager, general manager, of
21 Dillard's Oak Park?
22 A. When I worked there it was basically hi, how are
23 you doing. And he would say hi. He was always
24 running around, but I have never sat down and
25 had a conversation with him that was more than
44
1 about ten seconds.
2 Q. Has he ever attend any of those semi-annual
3 meeting you described having with Marvie?
4 A. No.
5 Q. During the time that you worked at Dillard's are
6 you aware of any cultural diversity training
7 given to any of the employees sponsored by
8 Dillard's?
9 A. I don't recall any.
10 Q. Any sensitivity training that would deal with
11 coming into contact with individuals of
12 different races or from different backgrounds?
13 A. I don't recall any.
14 Q. Are you familiar with an incident log that was
15 kept by Dillard's security?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. What is your understanding of the purpose of
18 that log?
19 A. To track activity that was occurring in the
20 stores.
21 Q. What is your understanding as to what the
22 officers were to do in reference to that log,
23 the security officers at Dillard's?
24 A. My understanding was if they handled a
25 particular situation that upon its completion
45
1 they would go to the log and write notes so that
2 way officers coming on duty later that day or
3 the next day or the next week could check that
4 log periodically. It was intelligence
5 information.
6 Q. What do you mean by intelligence information?
7 A. Well, if someone came in and attempted to pass,
8 you know, let's say a closed account check or
9 maybe a forged check, this information would be
10 recorded along with the description of the
11 suspect, and that way officers coming in later
12 could read this and see the name on the check
13 and see the person, and hopefully you can use
14 that information at a later point in time.
15 Q. While you were a security officer at Dillard's,
16 how did the number of calls that you would
17 receive on African-American shoppers compare
18 with the number of African-American shoppers
19 that you would see in the store?
20 MS. KOCH: Object to the form of the
21 question as vague and overly broad.
22 A. Can you ask it one more time?
23 Q. (By Ms. Finnell) During the time that you were
24 a security officer at Dillard's, how did the
25 number of calls that you would receive regarding
46
1 African-Americans as suspected or to be
2 investigated as shoplifters, compare with the
3 number of African-Americans that you would
4 generally see shopping in the store?
5 MS. KOCH: Same objection.
6 A. The majority of calls that I received requesting
7 my presence due to an alleged potential
8 shoplifter, the majority were African-American,
9 not all, but the majority.
10 Q. (By Ms. Finnell) Were the majority of customers
11 that you would notice in general at Oak Park
12 Mall Dillard's African-Americans?
13 A. No, the majority were white.
14 Q. Why is it that you believe African-American
15 shoppers were treated differently than white
16 shoppers at Dillard's Oak Park? Do you believe
17 that, first of all? Back up.
18 MS. KOCH: Object to the form of
19 question as having been asked and answered at
20 some length.
21 Q. (By Ms. Finnell) She is probably right, but do
22 you believe that?
23 MS. KOCH: Same objection.
24 Q. (By Ms. Finnell) You can still answer.
25 A. I believe that particular people employed in
47
1 Dillard's security would, for lack of a better
2 word, prey on African-Americans. I don't think
3 generally speaking that Dillard's is
4 discriminatory, but there are particular
5 employees that --
6 Q. Who are those particular employees?
7 MR. SANTOS: I want to take a short
8 break.
9 MS. FINNELL: Okay.
10 (A recess was taken.)
11 Q. (By Ms. Finnell) Do you remember the question?
12 A. Can you repeat it?
13 MS. FINNELL: Can you read it back?
14 (Discussion off the record.)
15 (The requested portion of the record
16 was read by the reporter as follows:
17 "Question: Why is it that you believe
18 African-American shoppers were treated
19 differently than white shoppers at Dillard's Oak
20 Park? Do you believe that, first of all? Back
21 up.
22 "MS. KOCH: Object to the form of
23 question as having been asked and answered at
24 some length.
25 "Question: She is probably right, but
48
1 do you believe that?
2 "MS. KOCH: Same objection.
3 "Question: You can still answer.
4 "Answer: I believe that particular
5 people employed in Dillard's security would, for
6 lack of a better word, prey on
7 African-Americans. I don't think generally
8 speaking that Dillard's is discriminatory, but
9 there are particular employees that --
10 Question: Who are those particular
11 employees?")
12 Q. (By Ms. Finnell) In reference to the particular
13 employees that you believe prey on
14 African-Americans, who are those?
15 A. There is only one that comes to mind, and that
16 would be Trooper Sanchez.
17 Q. Any others that come to mind?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Why Trooper Sanchez other than the incident that
20 you described earlier in reference to him
21 pursuing the African-American suspects off
22 premises?
23 A. Well, over the years there have been a number of
24 incidents where he has made apprehensions of
25 African-Americans and I would respond for one
49
1 reason or another along with the district
2 officer who was going to take the report and
3 process the arrest. There were several
4 instances of, I guess, could be classified as
5 questionable probable cause.
6 Q. Based on what?
7 A. Just based on the particular situation. How we
8 operate as a police department as a district
9 officer, the on duty officer, responds and
10 contacts the security personnel, and says, "Tell
11 me what happened." And then the security
12 officer or the associate or both will then tell
13 the officer, "Well, this is what we have."
14 And then the officer has to make a
15 decision if this a good arrest or if it's a bad
16 arrest. And if the officer doesn't feel it's a
17 good arrest he will write a report but doesn't
18 take the person to jail. If he believes that
19 probable cause exists, then you do the report or
20 take the person into custody release them on a
21 notice to appear.
22 Over the years, there have been
23 several instances where Trooper Sanchez has made
24 apprehensions, and it was later determined by
25 whoever that possibly probable cause did not
50
1 exist and charges weren't filed at that time.
2 Q. And these apprehensions were of
3 African-Americans?
4 A. The ones that I can recall responding on or
5 having knowledge of, yes.
6 Q. Of the ones that you can recall responding on,
7 can you describe the circumstances?
8 A. I don't recall.
9 Q. No specifics?
10 A. I don't.
11 Q. Earlier you mentioned in general Kansas Highway
12 Patrol. Do you believe that Kansas Highway
13 Patrol officers that are working -- I'm not
14 trying to be overly general. I'm not saying all
15 of them, that all or some of them treat
16 African-American shoppers different than white
17 shoppers? Do you understand that question?
18 MS. KOCH: I object to the form of
19 question as vague and overly broad and asked and
20 answered to the extent he has already given us
21 an answer to who he said he believes at
22 Dillard's security would, in his words, prey on
23 African-Americans.
24 Q. You can answer.
25 MR. SANTOS: I am sorry. I am losing
51
1 track of the question.
2 MS. FINNELL: We can go off the
3 record.
4 (Discussion off the record.)
5 Q. (By Ms. Finnell) Sergeant Imber, in follow-up
6 to your answer about particular employees of
7 Dillard's who treat African-American customers
8 differently than white customers, you answered
9 one that comes to mind is Trooper Sanchez. Is
10 he the only one who you believe preys on
11 customers, or is he the only one that comes to
12 your mind today?
13 A. I mentioned earlier plural, and I stand by
14 that. I have a recollection of Trooper Sanchez.
15 He is the only one that I can recall identifying
16 by voice over the radio system referring to
17 African-Americans as Code 3 or Code 4s. I have
18 heard it used numerous times over the years, and
19 I couldn't tell you who was on the radio, but I
20 am familiar with Trooper Sanchez' voice, it's
21 kind of distinct, it's kind of scratchy. And
22 there have been other employees, as I mentioned
23 earlier also, that I didn't feel their contact
24 with African-American shoppers alleged
25 shoplifters were totally professional.
52
1 Q. Can you not think of any of their names today?
2 A. No, I can't.
3 MS. FINNELL: I am thinking no further
4 questions.
5 MS. KOCH: Are you saying no further
6 questions, or are you thinking no further
7 questions?
8 MS. FINNELL: Give me time to reflect.
9 MR. SANTOS: I am not sure where we
10 are at, whether you are reflecting or if you are
11 done. I would like to speak to the officer just
12 one last time.
13 MS. FINNELL: Okay.
14 (Discussion off the record.)
15 Q. (By Ms. Finnell) Sergeant Imber, when you
16 referred to particular employees of Dillard's
17 preying on African-American customers what
18 exactly did you mean by that?
19 A. What I meant by that was that in my opinion
20 Trooper Sanchez treats African-American shoppers
21 or alleged shoplifters differently than he does
22 whites.
23 Q. Is he the only one that does that, treats
24 African-American shoppers or shoplifting
25 suspects differently than they do whites?
53
1 A. No. I believe I answered earlier, and again, I
2 recall some incidents where other security
3 officers had unprofessional contacts with
4 African-Americans, but I don't recall who they
5 were, but I do have a recollection of Trooper
6 Sanchez treating African-Americans differently
7 than whites.
8 Q. But he is not the only one, you just don't
9 recall the names?
10 MR. SANTOS: With your permission?
11 MS. FINNELL: Yes.
12 MR. SANTOS: My understanding,
13 Sergeant Imber, is that -- the other point of
14 clarification is that you meant nothing by the
15 term prey beyond that point of he treats them
16 differently, is that correct?
17 THE WITNESS: Correct.
18 Q. (By Ms. Finnell) Would your use of the word
19 prey encompass targeting?
20 MS. FINNELL: This is all part of the
21 clarification process.
22 MS. KOCH: You are getting into
23 leading.
24 MS. FINNELL: Let's go off the record
25 a second.
54
1 (Discussion off the record.)
2 Q. (By Ms. Finnell) To what extent, if any, do you
3 believe, based on your experience as an Oak Park
4 Mall security and Dillard's security officer,
5 that African-American customers are targeted for
6 investigation on shoplifting?
7 MS. KOCH: I object to the form of
8 that question as vague, overly broad and at
9 least pieces of it has been asked and answered
10 throughout the deposition.
11 MR. SANTOS: And I really would have
12 to object that unless it relates to my request
13 to clarify, and I don't understand how it does,
14 I believe that procedural we must have been
15 through the direct or finished at this point.
16 Did we bring closure to your direct or not?
17 MS. FINNELL: Technically, we did. I
18 did say no further questions but --
19 MS. KOCH: I share in that objection.
20 You are pushing, Kathy.
21 MS. FINNELL: That's okay.
22 Q. (By Ms. Finnell) This is the final question.
23 In follow-up to your request on clarification of
24 your use of the word prey, and I believe you
25 said prey, you meant treating --
55
1 African-American customers being treated
2 differently than whites?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Okay. To what extent, if any, does that
5 treatment include being targeted as shoplifters
6 or to what extent, if any, do African-American
7 shoppers being targeted as potential suspects
8 for shoplifting, to what extent is that included
9 in your use of the word prey, if any?
10 MS. KOCH: Object to the form of your
11 question as vague and confusing.
12 Q. (By Ms. Finnell) Did you understand it?
13 A. Oh, yes. As I mentioned earlier, I have a
14 recollection over the years that there were
15 several instances when Trooper Sanchez was
16 overheard on the security radio system informing
17 the other security officers that there were two
18 Code 3s, or Code 4s, basically identifying the
19 fact that two blacks or one black was coming in
20 a particular entrance. But I never heard him
21 advise that there were two whites. I don't know
22 if you want to call that targeting. To me, that
23 is treating people differently, because my
24 recollection is he only did that to the
25 African-Americans and no one else.
56
1 MS. FINNELL: Thanks.
2 EXAMINATION BY MS. KOCH:
3 Q. (By Ms. Koch) Sergeant Imber, I have a few
4 follow-up questions. Trooper Sanchez is
5 Hispanic, isn't he?
6 A. I don't know.
7 Q. Do you know whether or not Trooper Sanchez
8 treats Hispanic shoppers any differently than he
9 does white shoppers or black shoppers?
10 A. I don't know.
11 Q. You referred to a change in Dillard's policy to
12 allow security officers to work out of uniform.
13 Is it your understanding that it was Dillard's
14 decision to allow certain security officers to
15 work out of uniform while requiring others to
16 wear the uniform?
17 A. It was my understanding that after Overland Park
18 took over the security for Dillard's, that after
19 a length of time it become more difficult for
20 Bill Evans, who works for this department to
21 fill the schedule. And it's my understanding
22 that in order to have enough security officers
23 there and to keep the numbers where they need to
24 be, that other departments were brought into the
25 equation to assist with the job. And it's also
57
1 my understanding that there are agencies such as
2 Kansas Highway Patrol and some other
3 departments, whose chief of polices do not allow
4 them to wear their uniforms outside of their
5 jurisdiction.
6 Q. Is it your understanding that Overland Park
7 police officers have been turned down for
8 security officer jobs so that nonuniformed
9 security officers can be hired or not?
10 A. I have no knowledge of that.
11 Q. You are not saying, are you, that Dillard's has
12 chosen to go and hire some other jurisdictions
13 other than Overland Park so they can have
14 nonuniformed police officers, are you, or
15 nonuniformed security, are you?
16 A. No, but again, it's been a few years since I
17 have worked there, but I don't know why an
18 Overland Park officer couldn't go plain clothes.
19 It's our jurisdiction, you would either be in
20 uniform or plain clothes. Again, it's my
21 understanding that Dillard's had to dip into
22 other jurisdictions in order to fill -- because
23 we were there -- I mean security is there seven
24 days a week, and it takes a lot of manpower to
25 fill all those shifts, and after a while a lot
58
1 of the Overland Park guys were either getting
2 burned out or found better job opportunities and
3 left employment.
4 Q. You have told us that from 1987 to 1994 you were
5 working at Dillard's as a security officer and
6 at Oak Park Mall as a security officer, right?
7 A. Correct.
8 Q. How many hours a week would you work on average
9 at Dillard's as a security officer?
10 A. The most I can recall working at Dillard's would
11 have been two shifts a week, and each shift
12 would be for four hours. So I would have eight
13 hours at Dillard's a week and one shift at the
14 mall that would be four or five hours. We are
15 not allowed to work more than 20 hours a week
16 off duty. So I might work ten hours for the
17 mall and five hours for Dillard's or vice versa,
18 but it was never more than a total of 20 hours.
19 Q. When you say the most would be two shifts or
20 eight hours a week, what would be typical for
21 number of hours you would work at Dillard's per
22 week?
23 A. Well, one weekday evening from five to nine and
24 four or five hours on a weekend.
25 Q. Was there a typical number of hours you would
59
1 work a week, or would it vary?
2 A. It would vary, but I would say on average eight
3 or nine.
4 Q. You have testified today that you would get
5 calls from sales associates to come to areas
6 about suspicious people who would turn out to be
7 African-Americans, and you wouldn't believe
8 there was any other basis for the call, correct?
9 A. Correct.
10 Q. Do you recall the names of any of those sales
11 associates?
12 A. No, I don't, because the majority of the calls
13 occurred in the north store in the women's
14 areas, and I just wasn't very well acquainted
15 with -- I didn't like to work the north store.
16 I liked to work the men's store.
17 Q. Did you usually work in the north store or in
18 the south store?
19 A. I usually worked in the south store, but
20 occasionally I did work the north store.
21 Sometimes, years ago, I would be the only person
22 working and I would have to bounce back and
23 forth between the stores.
24 Q. So you can't tell us today the names of any of
25 the sales associates who made these calls for
60
1 you when there wasn't a basis?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Do you know whether any of them are still
4 working for Dillard's?
5 A. I have no idea.
6 Q. Do you know Officer Tom Wilson?
7 A. I have met him and I have seen him, but I don't
8 recall really ever having a conversation with
9 him, other than hi, how are you doing and seeing
10 him in passing.
11 Q. Do you have any complaints about how Officer
12 Wilson treats African-Americans?
13 A. No.
14 Q. On the incident you referred to earlier in your
15 testimony, in which a Dillard's security officer
16 took an African-American female into custody and
17 she complained about being roughed up, did that
18 incident involve a theft?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. You also testified about an incident or
21 incidents in which a Dillard's security officer
22 looked in the bag, I believe you said, of an
23 African-American, or African-Americans, and
24 found no receipt and kept the merchandise,
25 correct?
61
1 A. Correct.
2 Q. Do you know whether or not those incidents
3 involved actual shoplifting?
4 A. My recollection of these incidents isn't good
5 enough to say for sure if they did or not.
6 Q. You have testified that you are aware of bad
7 stops of African-Americans at Dillard's over the
8 years. Can you recall today any of the specific
9 bad stops by either name of the suspected
10 shoplifter or name of the security officer
11 involved?
12 A. No, I don't remember specific names. I just
13 have a recollection that -- you know, I can
14 recall that they were stopped and there was
15 heated conversation that this person either
16 stole something or possibly stole something, and
17 the end result was it wasn't stolen and the
18 customer was upset and left the store.
19 Q. But you can't recall what security officer or
20 officers were involved?
21 A. No, I am sorry.
22 Q. Are you aware of any bad stops of white shoppers
23 at Dillard's over the years?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Do you recall any of the security officers
62
1 involved in those bad stops?
2 A. No, I don't.
3 Q. Do you think it was wrong of Dillard's to hire
4 Kansas Highway Patrolmen as security officers?
5 MS. FINNELL: Objection. It's vague.
6 A. Do I think it was wrong for them to hire? No.
7 Q. (By Ms. Koch) You talked about a change you
8 believed Marvie Dirks implemented in the way
9 that security officers were scheduled based on
10 number of apprehensions, right?
11 A. Correct.
12 Q. Who told you that there was this change in
13 policy?
14 A. I don't recall the exact person who told me, but
15 it was kind of a hot item at that time, and all
16 of the security officers that I had contact with
17 were talking about it and expressing their
18 opinions on what they thought of the policy or
19 proposed policy. And there were some other
20 Overland Park officers that said, no, I'm not
21 going to stick around if that's what they are
22 doing. And they left as well.
23 Q. Did anyone in Dillard's management ever tell you
24 that that was a new policy at Dillard's?
25 A. No.
63
1 Q. Did anybody in Dillard's management ever tell
2 you that there was an actual list of arrests per
3 security officer?
4 A. No one from management told me that.
5 Q. Who did tell you that?
6 A. I heard it discussed among other Dillard's
7 security people.
8 Q. Do you remember who?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Do you know if there had been criticisms of some
11 of the security officers for just standing
12 around or --
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. -- or staying in the lounge area?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Do you know who had been criticized?
17 A. I don't know the person's name. I know that
18 there was a Lenexa officer who was -- well,
19 either he was told he couldn't work there
20 anymore or something happened, because he was
21 spending too much time around the cosmetic
22 counter where young ladies are employed.
23 Q. Did you hear of any other criticisms of security
24 officers for basically not doing their job or
25 standing around too much?
64
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Who?
3 A. Occasionally I would hear some of the ASMs, area
4 sales managers, say that officers weren't
5 walking around enough, or just general
6 complaints that a lot of times I didn't agree
7 with what they were saying.
8 Q. Did you hear complaints about any specific
9 security officers?
10 A. I am sure I did, but I can't recall who those
11 particular officers were. One comes to mind.
12 Q. Who?
13 A. He is no longer employed here, he retired. An
14 officer by the name of -- he was a sergeant as
15 well, Jim Seiner. He worked there for a while,
16 and he was older and he didn't walk around as
17 much as some of the younger officers, and he
18 would kind of take it easy and some of the ASMs
19 rode him pretty hard about not getting around.
20 Q. In your opinion, do commissioned police officers
21 generally make better security officers than
22 security officers who aren't commissioned police
23 officers?
24 MS. FINNELL: Objection, vague. Also
25 calls for speculation. Also lack of foundation
65
1 for the question.
2 A. Generally speaking, I think police officers are
3 better, but in my opinion police officers are
4 better in their roles when they are in uniformed
5 security versus undercover type work.
6 Q. (By Ms. Koch) You don't blame Dillard's for
7 some jurisdictions refusing to allow their
8 officers to wear uniforms?
9 A. I don't blame Dillard's at all. I think
10 Dillard's was in a bind. It was either allow
11 these officers to do that or run short and lose
12 merchandise.
13 MS. KOCH: I have no further
14 questions.
15 EXAMINATION BY MS. FINNELL:
16 Q. Why do you believe officers are better in their
17 roles as security in their uniforms rather than
18 in undercover?
19 A. In regard to shoplifting. Police officers, if
20 they are working drugs do an excellent job
21 undercover, but I think when it comes to in the
22 retail business that I just think we are better
23 high visibility -- we are more effective in high
24 visibility crime prevention than we are walking
25 around in jeans carrying a bag with our radio in
66
1 it looking for shoplifters. You are probably
2 looking for more -- that's just my gut feeling.
3 I have worked security in plain
4 clothes at different places over the years, you
5 know, here and there, little spot off duty jobs,
6 and I never was that comfortable, and I didn't
7 feel I was effective. I think you can prevent
8 much more crime by being visible than you can by
9 apprehending people by being undercover.
10 Q. Okay.
11 A. That's why we drive marked cars. We could all
12 drive unmarked cars, but by driving marked cars
13 hopefully we prevent problems.
14 Q. Ms. Koch asked you earlier whether you knew
15 whether the incident where merchandise was taken
16 from a customer involved shoplifting, do you
17 remember that question?
18 A. Uh-huh.
19 Q. Yes?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Are you aware of any incidents where someone was
22 suspected of shoplifting, merchandise was
23 retrieved, and that person was let go and not
24 arrested?
25 A. Yes.
67
1 Q. What are the circumstances of that type of
2 scenario?
3 A. Well, I don't recall the exact circumstances,
4 but I vaguely remember being present when people
5 were stopped because they were believed to have
6 shoplifted, merchandise was taken, but there
7 really wasn't a good enough case to arrest them.
8 And these people were told basically produce a
9 receipt and you get this stuff back, if not, I
10 am going to keep it, and that's the way it's
11 going to be.
12 Usually, the scenario would be I can't
13 prove you took it, but I am pretty sure you took
14 it, and you can't show me a receipt, and you
15 know, you are not arguing with me, and it beats
16 getting arrested, so here, I will take it and
17 you can take off. That would happen
18 occasionally.
19 Q. Did you ever do something like what you just
20 described?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Why not?
23 A. Well, as I stated several times earlier, I would
24 not stop and conduct an investigation or make an
25 apprehension unless I had probable cause in that
68
1 I actually observed what I thought to be a
2 violation, not based on what someone else told
3 me.
4 Q. You were also asked about Officer Tom Wilson.
5 Have you ever observed him in his role as a
6 security officer, and what I mean by that is in
7 an investigation or an apprehension of a
8 shoplifting suspect?
9 A. I don't believe so.
10 Q. So when you answered that you would have no
11 complaints about how Tom Wilson treated
12 African-American shoplifter suspects, what was
13 the basis of that response?
14 A. Well, I have no first-hand information through
15 observations of my own that he treated anybody
16 any differently. I have had such limited
17 contact with him and I have not heard other
18 security officers talk bad about him, nothing
19 through the rumor mill.
20 MS. FINNELL: I have nothing further.
21 Thank you.
22 EXAMINATION BY MR. SANTOS:
23 Q. I would like to go back and go to the
24 clarification point again concerning the use of
25 the word prey, and ask you two questions. One,
69
1 my understanding is that, as you indicated, for
2 lack of a better word, that wasn't necessarily
3 the word you would choose?
4 A. That's correct.
5 Q. Secondly, that you did not mean to reflect upon
6 Trooper Sanchez' personal feelings or his
7 personal attitude toward African-Americans by
8 your comments?
9 A. That's correct. I have no idea what his
10 personal feelings are on this topic.
11 MR. SANTOS: Thank you. I believe
12 that the witness has a right to be crystal clear
13 on that point. Thank you.
14 MS. FINNELL: No further questions.
15 (The deposition concluded at 5:00
16 p.m.)
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24 ______________________
Michael Imber
25 JLW
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1 IN RE: Hampton vs. Dillard's
2
3 ____ I certify that I have read my testimony
4 and request that NO changes be made.
5
6 ____ I certify that I have read my testimony
7 and request that the above changes be
8 made.
9
10
11 ______________________
12 Michael Imber
13
14
15 Subscribed and sworn to before me
16 this ____ day of ____________, 19____
17
18
19 ______________________
20 Notary Public
21 State of _____________
22 County of ____________
23 My commission expires ____________
24
25 JLW
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1 C E R T I F I C A T E
2 I, Judy L. Whitehouse, a Notary Public of
3 the State of Kansas, do hereby certify:
4 That prior to being examined, the witness
5 was first duly sworn;
6 That said testimony was taken down by me in
7 shorthand at the time and place hereinbefore stated
8 and was thereafter reduced to typewriting under my
9 direction;
10 That the foregoing transcript is a true
11 record of the testimony given by said witness;
12 That I am not a relative or employee or
13 attorney or counsel of any of the parties or a
14 relative or employee of such attorney or counsel or
15 financially interested in the action.
16 Witness my hand and seal this 18th day of
17 September, 1997.
18
19
20
21
22
23 Judy L. Whitehouse
24 Notary Public, State of Kansas
25 My commission expires 8/24/00