Document provided by Benson & Associates
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
DISTRICT OF KANSAS
3 PAULA DARLENE HAMPTON and
DEMETRIA COOPER,
4
Plaintiffs,
5
vs. No. 97-2182-KHV
6
DILLARD'S DEPARTMENT
7 STORES, INC.,
8 Defendant.
9
10 DEPOSITION OF JACK RUSSELL RODGERS, a
witness, taken on behalf of the Plaintiffs, pursuant
11 to Notice, on the 12th day of September, 1997, at
the law offices of Spencer, Fane, Britt & Browne,
12 1000 Walnut Street, Suite 1400, Kansas City,
Missouri, before
13
JUDY L. WHITEHOUSE,
14
of AAA Reporting Company, a Notary Public of the
15 State of Missouri.
16 APPEARANCES
17 For the Plaintiffs:
MR. ARTHUR BENSON and
18 MS. KATHY D. FINNELL
ARTHUR BENSON & ASSOCIATES
19 1000 Walnut Street, Suite 1125
Kansas City, Missouri 64106-2123
20
21 For the Defendant:
MS. ELAINE DRODGE KOCH
22 SPENCER, FANE, BRITT & BROWNE
1000 Walnut Street, Suite 1400
23 Kansas City, Missouri 64106
24
25
2
1 STIPULATION
2 It was stipulated by and between counsel
3 that the presentment of this deposition to the
4 witness by the officer is expressly waived, and that
5 if said deposition is not signed by the witness by
6 the time of the commencement of the trial, it may be
7 used as though signed.
8
9 INDEX
10 WITNESS: Jack Russell Rodgers PAGE:
11 Examination by Mr. Benson 3
12 EXHIBITS: MARKED:
13 1 - Security Rules & Procedures 29
2 - Security officer objection 2-97 32
14 3 - Security office objectives 2-27-96 32
4 - Wilson security report 62
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
3
1 (The deposition commenced at 2:30
2 p.m.)
3 JACK RUSSELL RODGERS,
4 a witness, being first duly sworn, testified
5 under oath as follows:
6 EXAMINATION BY MR. BENSON:
7 Q. Please state your full name.
8 A. Jack Russell Rodgers.
9 Q. Where do you reside, Mr. Rodgers?
10 A. [Deleted]
11 Q. What is your employment?
12 A. Dillard's Department Stores.
13 Q. Your title?
14 A. General manager of the store.
15 Q. How long have you been employed by Dillard's?
16 A. Since 1983.
17 Q. Where were you employed by Dillard's originally?
18 A. At Oak Park Mall.
19 Q. Are you married?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Do you have children?
22 A. Three sons.
23 Q. Grown?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. What was your first position with Dillard's in
4
1 1983?
2 A. Store manager, general manager.
3 Q. You have held the same position ever since?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Have you ever been deposed before?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. How many times, approximately?
8 A. Over the course of years probably two or three
9 times.
10 Q. All in cases involving Dillard's?
11 A. No, no. No, never. These go back a long time
12 ago.
13 Q. Before you were employed by Dillard's?
14 A. Oh, yes.
15 Q. Where did you go to high school?
16 A. East High School, Sioux City, Iowa.
17 Q. Did you go to college?
18 A. Morningside College, Sioux City, Iowa.
19 Q. Do you have a college degree?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. What is that in?
22 A. Bachelor of science.
23 Q. What major?
24 A. Business.
25 Q. When did you receive that?
5
1 A. 1958.
2 Q. Any further college degrees?
3 A. No.
4 Q. What was your first full-time job after college?
5 A. J.C. Penney.
6 Q. How long did you work for J.C. Penney?
7 A. Almost 20 years.
8 Q. What position did you start in?
9 A. I started as a stock boy.
10 Q. What position did you end at?
11 A. Store manager.
12 Q. In what location?
13 A. Springfield, Ohio.
14 Q. What was your next full-time employment?
15 A. Stix, Baer & Fuller Department Stores.
16 Q. Where did you work for Stix, Baer?
17 A. In Independence, Missouri at the Independence
18 store.
19 Q. In what capacity?
20 A. Store manager.
21 Q. How long did you work in that position?
22 A. Let's see. I went there in June of 1978, and
23 then I went to Oak Park in October of 1983, just
24 prior to the Dillard's buyout.
25 Q. Have you told me about every full-time job you
6
1 have had since high school?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Did you serve in the military?
4 A. Air National Guard.
5 Q. When was that?
6 A. From 1954 to probably 1962 or 3.
7 Q. Did you have an occupational specialty?
8 A. Base supply.
9 Q. Did you ever see active duty besides basic
10 training?
11 A. No, we were placed on active, duty but we never
12 left the country.
13 Q. How long were you on active duty?
14 A. I don't remember. It was during the Berlin
15 crisis, and it could have been six months. I
16 don't remember.
17 Q. Do you have supervisory and administrative
18 responsibilities over all Dillard's employees at
19 the Oak Park Mall location?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. How many employees, full-time employees, does
22 Dillard's have?
23 A. It varies. I can't give you an exact answer
24 because it varies seasonally.
25 Q. From a high of what to a low of what?
7
1 A. Just full time or everything?
2 Q. Just full time.
3 A. Just full time probably a low of 250 to a high
4 of -- no, that's probably low. Probably a low
5 of 300 to a high of 350, 375, something like
6 that.
7 Q. How many part-time employees seasonally from a
8 high to a low range does Dillard's employ at the
9 Oak Park Mall location?
10 A. If we use 250 as a base of full time, there are
11 probably another 60 to 70 -- probably more than
12 that -- probably 90 during the low part of the
13 season, and probably another 30 to 40 during the
14 fourth quarter, which is the seasonal Christmas
15 time. It would probably be 500 people total.
16 Q. Is Dillard's organized administratively into
17 different departments or divisions that report
18 to you?
19 A. Well, the entire store reports to me.
20 Q. How many people directly report to you?
21 A. Directly report to me, I have an operations
22 manager and two merchandise managers.
23 Q. Who is the operations manager?
24 A. Operations manager is Marvie Dirks.
25 Q. Who were two merchandise managers?
8
1 A. Jan Laughton is the merchandise manager, just
2 newly appointed, in the 322 side or the south
3 store, and Scott Duff is newly appointed within
4 three months in the north store.
5 Q. What are Marvie Dirks' responsibilities?
6 A. She is responsible for all sales support
7 functions in the store.
8 Q. What do you mean by sales support?
9 A. Any function that supports the selling part of
10 the operation, she is responsible for. That
11 goes from supplies, you know, housekeeping,
12 maintenance, security, the dock, all those sorts
13 of things.
14 Q. But not sales itself?
15 A. Not directly, no.
16 Q. So the sales associates report to her?
17 A. Sale associates report to the two merchandise
18 managers, who then report directly to me.
19 Q. Does Dillard's at Oak Park Mall have a set of
20 operating rules or procedures that govern its
21 various functions?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Are you at least generally familiar with all of
24 those rules and regulations?
25 A. Generally.
9
1 Q. Why does Dillard's have operating rules or
2 procedures?
3 A. Probably the biggest thing is continuity between
4 the divisions. Each store is run very
5 similarly, and most of the operational functions
6 come from out of Little Rock, funnel down
7 through the stores, gives a continuity of
8 operations.
9 Q. By continuity, you mean similarity among varies
10 Dillard's locations?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. If someone moved from Position A at one
13 Dillard's to that same position at another
14 Dillard's, they would expect the operating rules
15 and procedures to be generally the same?
16 A. Absolutely.
17 Q. In addition to providing consistency among
18 various locations, does having operating rules
19 and procedures serve any other corporate
20 purposes?
21 A. Just the guideline and how we run our business.
22 Q. Why is it important, in your opinion, to have
23 guidelines on how you run your business?
24 A. Well, probably the biggest single thing is that
25 it keeps us all going in the same direction and
10
1 gives the guidelines and rules for every facet
2 of our business so we are not all going
3 different directions.
4 Q. To what extent do you, as the manager of the
5 Dillard's at Oak Park Mall, have authority to
6 depart substantively from the operating rules
7 and procedures that are provided to you out of
8 Little Rock?
9 A. Virtually none.
10 Q. When you refer to Little Rock, you are referring
11 to the Dillard's corporate office?
12 A. Corporate headquarters, I am sorry.
13 Q. Is it Dillard's corporate policy that its rules
14 and regulations are intended to limit the scope
15 of individual discretion?
16 A. I would say it's there to provide direction for
17 the discretion, if that's --
18 Q. I think I understand the difference. The
19 direction for the discretion would have bounds,
20 though, would it not?
21 A. Absolutely.
22 Q. Those bounds would be set out by the rules and
23 regulations?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Would you agree that Dillard's has those rules
11
1 and regulations because it does not want its
2 employee to exceed the bounds of those rules and
3 regulations?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Among the reasons Dillard's would not want its
6 employees to exceed the bounds of the rules and
7 regulations would be a variety of corporate
8 interests?
9 A. Absolutely.
10 Q. Which include profitability?
11 A. Uh-huh.
12 Q. Avoiding liability?
13 A. Absolutely.
14 Q. Would you agree that when too much discretion is
15 left to employees, that employees may act in
16 ways that are inconsistent with corporate
17 policies?
18 MS. KOCH: Object to the form of your
19 question as vague.
20 Q. (By Mr. Benson) You may answer.
21 A. Repeat that question, please.
22 Q. When too much discretion is left to an employee,
23 employees may act in ways that are inconsistent
24 with corporate policies or with how other
25 employees are doing their job?
12
1 MS. KOCH: Again, object to the form
2 as vague.
3 A. I would think that would depend on the
4 circumstances.
5 Q. (By Mr. Benson) What is Marvie Dirks' title?
6 A. Operations manager.
7 Q. How long has she held that position,
8 approximately?
9 A. Probably six to seven years.
10 Q. Did you put her in that position?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Who held it before her?
13 A. Dee Sands. S-a-n-d-s.
14 Q. And the first name is D-e-e?
15 A. Dee, D-e-e, yes.
16 Q. Dee Sands is a woman, I take it?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And was she in that position when you first came
19 to Dillard's?
20 A. No.
21 Q. How long was Dee Sands in that position?
22 A. Probably three or four years.
23 Q. Was Marvie Dirks an employee of Dillard's at the
24 time you appointed her operations manager?
25 A. Yes.
13
1 Q. On what basis did you believe her qualified for
2 the position of operations manager?
3 A. Performance.
4 Q. Performance in what?
5 A. In her -- she had been in the Oak Park store as
6 one of my area managers and was promoted to an
7 operations manager at Metro North and performed
8 very well there. And when the opening came that
9 I needed one, why, I called her back.
10 Q. Someone else hired her away from you?
11 A. No, no. It was part of the promotion strategy
12 within the market. For example, she was an area
13 sales manager, which is this next level down
14 from the operations manager. We promoted her to
15 the next level up as an operations manager of
16 one of the smaller stores. So it was
17 progressive.
18 Q. She got experience in a smaller store?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. How did you determine that her experience at
21 Metro North had been satisfactory?
22 A. Two things. The director of stores, who was in
23 the market, who worked directly with her level
24 of operation, and the store manager at that
25 store I know very well, have worked with over
14
1 the years.
2 Q. You didn't have any supervisory responsibilities
3 over Marvie Dirks while she was at Metro North,
4 did you?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Do you oversee Marvie Dirks' discharge of her
7 responsibilities on a day-to-day basis, or less
8 frequently.
9 A. Less frequently.
10 Q. What is the nature of your managerial oversight
11 of Marvie Dirks' discharge of her duties?
12 A. Well, she is very good at what she does, and so
13 there is very little, if any, follow-up that
14 needs to be done. Usually our interaction is
15 something that she would come to me on if it's
16 something out of the ordinary, and if I would go
17 to her it would be something that I would
18 request a response or an action from her that I
19 just don't know the answer, that falls under her
20 area of responsibility.
21 Q. Would it be correct that she has wide latitude
22 in carrying out her responsibility?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And that you trust her to discharge those
25 duties?
15
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. When did you first become aware that anyone had
3 complained that they had been treated adversely
4 because they were African-Americans at the
5 Dillard's store?
6 A. In this particular case?
7 Q. In any case. When did you first hear of a
8 complaint by a customer -- not by an employee,
9 but by a customer, of allegedly having been
10 treated adversely because they were
11 African-American at the Dillard's at Oak Park
12 Mall?
13 A. I couldn't give you an answer. I don't know.
14 Q. Has it ever been brought to your attention that
15 African-Americans have complained about their
16 treatment as customers at Dillard's at Oak Park
17 Mall?
18 A. No more than any other, if they feel they have
19 been mistreated for whatever reason, which
20 happens occasionally in retail.
21 Q. Has any customer ever complained to anyone at
22 Dillard's, to your knowledge, that the customer
23 believes she or he had been discriminated
24 against because she or he was an
25 African-American?
16
1 MS. KOCH: I better object to the form
2 of question as vague. I think it's clear the
3 witness isn't sure what you are asking. It's
4 pretty broad.
5 Q. (By Mr. Benson) Do you understand my question?
6 A. With the size of the operation we have and the
7 amount of volume that we do when a customer is
8 unhappy about anything a lot of times it comes
9 up through the ranks in most cases. Very seldom
10 does it ever get to me, only because most of it
11 is resolved at a level below me. Only very
12 rarely do I ever get involved unless it would an
13 exception.
14 MS. KOCH: Are you asking whether Mr.
15 Rodgers at any time in his history at Dillard's
16 has been aware or any complaints?
17 MR. BENSON: I will rephrase it. That
18 is what I was asking. Let me be clear.
19 Q. (By Mr. Benson) When, if any time, was the
20 first time it's ever come to your attention
21 personally, that a customer at Dillard's at Oak
22 Park Mall complained to she or he had been
23 allegedly mistreated or discriminated against
24 because there were African-American?
25 A. I don't know the first time. I don't know that
17
1 there was a first time. I don't know.
2 Q. Has it ever happened, has it ever come to your
3 attention?
4 A. Probably. And I say probably because, again, it
5 could have been in passing that this situation
6 happened, and I resolved it, and got me involved
7 in it. But, you know, again most of that type
8 of thing is handled by an operations manager,
9 just because that falls under her job
10 responsibility.
11 Q. Would you customarily expect the operations
12 manager to bring to your attention complaints by
13 customers that they had been allegedly
14 mistreated because they were of any particular
15 race?
16 A. Only if she felt that I needed to know based
17 upon what her investigation showed.
18 Q. Under what circumstances would you expect her to
19 bring such information to your attention?
20 A. If she received a very negative response from
21 the associates involved that she would have been
22 working with and felt that she had not gotten
23 the message across to them, she would come to me
24 and say I have done this and I have done this,
25 and I don't think I got the message across,
18
1 where do I go from here.
2 Q. What do you mean by very negative response?
3 A. In other words, if an associate would be saying
4 this didn't happen or I don't believe this or
5 whatever the case may be, we normally say the
6 bottom line is it's a perception whether you
7 meant it or not, this would be the conversation
8 that was perceived by the customer to have taken
9 place, and we need to get it resolved. And
10 perception, a lot of times -- is sometimes -- I
11 shouldn't say a lot of times, I don't know how
12 much, but perception is one of the big things we
13 work with.
14 Q. Does Marvie Dirks have responsibility over
15 customer service?
16 A. Yes, she does.
17 Q. Would you expect that complaints such as adverse
18 treatment based on race would likely go or end
19 up at customer service?
20 A. Probably in most cases.
21 Q. Marvie Dirks as operations manager does not
22 directly supervise sales associates, does she?
23 A. There is a dual reporting relationship in terms
24 of in circumstances such as this yes, she would.
25 In other words, she is the No. 2 person in the
19
1 store in terms of authority within the store.
2 Q. So the other two -- what did you call them?
3 A. Merchandise managers. They are primarily the
4 selling technicians, put it that way, that does
5 it. That although they still have the
6 authority to handle it, just normally she does
7 that when she is there.
8 Q. Would you expect Marvie Dirks, as operations
9 manager, upon receipt of a complaint that a
10 sales associate has acted improperly toward a
11 person because of his or her race to take up
12 that matter with the merchandise manager?
13 A. In most cases, yes.
14 Q. If the matter were resolved between the
15 operations manager and the merchandise manager,
16 would you -- resolved satisfactorily --
17 A. Sure.
18 Q. -- would you expect that it would subsequently
19 be brought to your attention?
20 A. Probably not.
21 Q. Have you ever asked either the operations
22 manager or either of the merchandise managers to
23 determine whether or not customers were being
24 treated fairly and equally based on their race
25 at the Dillard's store in Oak Park?
20
1 A. Not specifically that. We have a customer
2 comment card that we use in the store that is
3 used for any customer comments that come across
4 the wire.
5 Q. Within the last several years, four, five or six
6 years, however far back you can remember, have
7 you become aware of any complaints by customers
8 at Dillard's at Oak Park Mall that as
9 African-Americans they believed they were
10 subjected to heavy surveillance by store
11 security or stopped and requested to allow
12 searches of their belongings because they are
13 African-American?
14 A. I will answer the question no, and then I will
15 say I do not deal with allegations and innuendos
16 when people will not give me their name. If I
17 get a phone call and a person says this happened
18 to me, the first thing I do is ask for their
19 name. If they give me their name, I react to it
20 and go in that direction. Occasionally I will
21 get one where they won't give me their name, and
22 I quite frankly don't give it the time of day
23 when they don't give me their name.
24 Q. You have had some complaints from people that
25 said that because they were black they were
21
1 mistreated but they wouldn't give you their
2 name, so you didn't pursue it?
3 A. I have no idea how to pursue it without a name
4 or a phone number that I can call back, or I
5 could get no specifics in terms of what it was,
6 or what the situation was.
7 Q. Are you aware of any employees of Dillard's at
8 Oak Park Mall who have quit, voluntarily
9 terminated their job, because they believed that
10 black customers were being mistreated by other
11 employees at Dillard's?
12 A. No.
13 Q. If that had happened, would you expect to be
14 told of that?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Would you consider that to be a serious problem?
17 A. I would investigate that myself, absolutely.
18 Q. For a person to give up a job at Dillard's
19 because they believed someone was being
20 mistreated because of their race that would be a
21 fairly serious step for an employee to take,
22 would you agree?
23 A. Absolutely.
24 Q. Would you expect if that had ever happened that
25 your employees would personally advise you and
22
1 make sure you knew that that had happened?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Would it be, in your opinion, a violation of the
4 other employees' responsibilities if they failed
5 to provide you with that information if such a
6 happening had occurred?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. To your knowledge, has Dillard's conducted any
9 marketing surveys or any kind of surveys aimed
10 at identifying demographic characteristics of
11 its shoppers at Oak Park Mall?
12 A. No. None that I am aware of, let's put it that
13 way. Sometimes corporate does through the
14 credit department out of Phoenix, but nothing
15 that I am aware of that would have been done
16 locally.
17 Q. Are you aware of any kinds of marketing
18 activities or surveys that have been done on a
19 metro-wide -- let me back up.
20 Is Dillard's organized in geographic
21 divisions?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. What division are you in?
24 A. We are in the central division.
25 Q. Approximately what does that include?
23
1 A. Marion, Illinois, would be the easternmost
2 point; Omaha, Nebraska, would be the
3 northernmost point; I believe Paduka, Kentucky,
4 is the southernmost point; and Hutchinson,
5 Kansas, is the westernmost point.
6 Q. That's called the central division?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Is the central division subdivided into regions?
9 A. No. There are district managers. There are
10 four district managers, but it's all one
11 division.
12 Q. Is the Oak Park Mall store in one particular
13 district or has a district manager?
14 A. Yes. Director of stores is his official title.
15 Q. Where is the director of stores to whom you
16 report located?
17 A. His office is in the Oak Park store.
18 Q. What is the geographic reach of his
19 responsibilities?
20 A. He is over the Kansas City metropolitan area.
21 He has St. Joseph, Missouri; Columbia; Jeff
22 City; Springfield.
23 Q. His district is mostly Missouri, excluding St.
24 Louis, sounds like?
25 A. Yes, you are right. You are exactly right.
24
1 Q. Are you aware of whether or not in that district
2 -- we are speaking now of Missouri and the
3 Kansas suburbs?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. -- whether or not any surveys or marketing
6 efforts have been undertaken to identify
7 Dillard's customers?
8 A. I don't know of any that would have -- nothing
9 would have been done within the Kansas City
10 metropolitan area. Again, there could be some
11 corporate things that are done that I am not
12 aware of.
13 Q. Are you aware of any studies or data collection
14 efforts that tell you where your customers at
15 Oak Park Mall tend to live?
16 A. No. Obviously, the lion's share probably live
17 in Johnson County because that's where we are
18 at.
19 Q. Are you aware of any studies that try to track
20 them by, say, the zip codes on their charge
21 data?
22 A. No, no.
23 Q. Or the prefix of their telephone numbers or
24 anything like that?
25 A. Not that I am aware of.
25
1 Q. Since the lion's share of your customers come
2 from Johnson County, would you expect the
3 demographics of your customers to fairly closely
4 parallel the demographics of Johnson County?
5 A. No, because the everyday customer is in the
6 Johnson County area, but because the size of the
7 mall and the size of our store we pull from
8 everywhere. We pull as far north as St. Joe, we
9 pull as far east as Columbia and Jeff City.
10 That's primarily on the weekends, but we are big
11 enough we pull from everywhere.
12 Q. Has any effort been undertaken to determine the
13 racial composition of your customer base at
14 Dillard's at Oak Park Mall?
15 A. Not that I am aware of, no.
16 Q. Has any effort been undertaken, that you are
17 aware of, to measure or study the family income
18 characteristics of your customers at Oak Park
19 Mall?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Is it your experience that the draw of your
22 store that extends, as you stated primarily on
23 weekends, from St. Joseph to Columbia, Missouri,
24 does not particularly draw persons of one race
25 or demographics or family income characteristics
26
1 over another?
2 A. Not that I am aware of.
3 Q. Does your store engage in any particular
4 marketing activities aimed at various
5 geographic, racial or family income
6 characteristic populations?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Does you store advertise in all the major media
9 in the metropolitan area?
10 A. I would say yes.
11 Q. Do you advertise on radio?
12 A. Some radio.
13 Q. Some television?
14 A. Very seldom on television, but some.
15 Q. Mostly print?
16 A. Mostly print.
17 Q. That being the Kansas City Star?
18 A. Kansas City Star would be the biggest single
19 lineage.
20 Q. Do you advertise in the Johnson County Sun?
21 A. Sometimes.
22 Q. Are you familiar with the Kansas City Call, do
23 you know what the Kansas City Call is?
24 A. No. I have heard the name, but I couldn't tell
25 you much about it.
27
1 Q. Are you familiar with the publication known as
2 the Kansas City Globe?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. What is that?
5 A. All I can tell you is it's a tabloid size, and I
6 have seen the title on it. That's as far as I
7 know.
8 Q. Do you know where it's published or for whom or
9 what its target audience is?
10 A. I have no idea.
11 Q. Are you familiar with a publications called Dos
12 Mundos?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Do you know whether or not your store advertises
15 in the Globe?
16 A. I don't know.
17 Q. Do you know if your store advertises in the
18 Call?
19 A. I don't know, but it wouldn't be just an Oak
20 Park thing, because we are metropolitan enough
21 that if something like that were to happen it
22 could happen that all the stores would be
23 involved in it, not just Oak Park Mall.
24 Q. Does the director of stores for this district
25 that includes all of Missouri outside of St.
28
1 Louis, and the suburbs around Kansas City, does
2 that person have responsibility for advertising
3 that includes all Dillard's in his region, his
4 district?
5 A. No. All of that comes out of St. Louis.
6 Q. That covers the central division?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. When Dillard's is having a major sale in your
9 store, does it generally coincide with similar
10 sales in the other Metro area stores?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. How many Metro area stores are there?
13 A. Let's see. Metro North, Independence,
14 Bannister, Ward Parkway, Mission, what was
15 Indian Springs and Oak Park. Indian Springs is
16 closing and the new one will be Olathe.
17 Q. Six now, soon back to seven?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. When those six or seven stores have a sale, they
20 try to coordinate their sales?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. When they advertise those sales, who coordinates
23 the advertising for those sales?
24 A. That comes out of St. Louis.
25 Q. Do you know when the metropolitan area Dillard's
29
1 stores coordinate a sale, such as we have been
2 talking about, Dillard's out of St. Louis
3 advertises in media directed toward the
4 African-American community in Kansas City?
5 A. I don't know. I'm not privy to that kind of
6 information.
7 Q. Do you know whether or not there are any radio
8 stations in Kansas City that have primarily an
9 African-American listenership?
10 A. I don't know the answer.
11 Q. Do you know whether or not Dillard's advertises
12 on radio stations that customarily have
13 African-American listenership?
14 A. I don't know.
15 (Rodgers Deposition Exhibit No. 1 was
16 marked for identification.)
17 Q. (By Mr. Benson) I am showing you what has been
18 marked as Rodgers Deposition Exhibit 1. Do you
19 know what that is?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. What is it?
22 A. Dillard's Department Store rules and procedures
23 for security personnel, corporate form.
24 Q. Did this come out of the corporate headquarters
25 in Little Rock?
30
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. To your knowledge, these rules and procedures
3 for security personnel would be the same for any
4 Dillard's store in the company's chain?
5 A. Yes.
6 MS. KOCH: You need to let him finish
7 his questions before you answer.
8 A. I am sorry.
9 Q. (By Mr. Benson) I will try not to ask a new
10 question until you finish your answer.
11 A. Okay.
12 Q. Earlier you indicated that one reason that
13 Dillard's has rules and procedures was to help
14 secure against liability that the company might
15 face if rules and procedures were not in place?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. That would apply to rules and procedures
18 governing security personnel as well?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Whose responsibility is it to see that these
21 rules and procedures for security personnel are
22 followed by security personnel at your store?
23 A. Well, the ultimate responsibility is obviously
24 mine, because I am the general manager of the
25 store; however, the direct responsibility is
31
1 Marvie Dirks, who is the operations manager.
2 Security reports directly to her.
3 Q. She would have the day-to-day responsibility for
4 seeing that these rules and procedures were
5 implemented?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Would you expect Marvie to occasionally review
8 the performance of security personnel at
9 Dillard's to determine whether or not they were
10 following the rules and procedures?
11 A. Every associate, which a security officer is one
12 of our associates, is reviewed twice a year.
13 Q. Is that a formal review?
14 A. Uh-huh.
15 Q. Yes?
16 A. Yes. I am sorry.
17 Q. On a week-by-week or month-by-month basis, would
18 you expect the operations manager to pay
19 attention to whether or not the rules and
20 procedures were being followed by her security
21 personnel?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Would you expect her from time to time to read
24 the reports that the security personnel were
25 producing to make sure that those reports
32
1 indicated compliance with these rules and
2 procedures?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. What would you expect Marvie Dirks to do if, on
5 review a report of a security officer at
6 Dillard's, she noted that in some respect rules
7 and procedures had not been complied with?
8 A. That security officer would be brought in and
9 sat down and review the report, the incident
10 report, with that officer, and if there was a
11 question she would ask him to explain his
12 actions or her actions, whatever the case might
13 be, and then depending on what the response was
14 there what the next step would be.
15 (Rodgers Deposition Exhibits Nos. 2
16 and 3 were marked for identification.)
17 Q. (By Mr. Benson) Mr. Rodgers, I have handed you
18 two more documents marked Rodgers Exhibits 2 and
19 3. Exhibit 2 has a date at the bottom of it,
20 that is 2/27, do you see that?
21 A. Yes.
22 MS. KOCH: For the record, I think you
23 mean 2/97?
24 Q. (By Mr. Benson) Yes, 2/97. And Exhibit 3 is
25 dated at the bottom 2/27/96, do you see that?
33
1 A. Yes.
2 MR. BENSON: I knew that 27 came from
3 somewhere.
4 Q. (By Mr. Benson) Other than the date, they are
5 very similar documents. Have you seen these
6 before?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. What are they?
9 A. These are basically just as they would apply to
10 the Oak Park store individually try to point out
11 areas of high theft and so forth that we need
12 them to watch. We talk to them in terms of how
13 would want them to proceed. With two building
14 we are a little different than a lot of the
15 store simply because we have interaction between
16 the mall between the two buildings.
17 Q. Are these considered to be supplements to the
18 rules and procedures for the security officers
19 at Dillard's?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. These are additional rules and procedures that
22 security officers are supposed to comply with in
23 addition to the document we marked as Exhibit 1,
24 is that correct?
25 A. Yes.
34
1 Q. Similarly to the rules and procedures, would you
2 expect that your operations manager would see
3 that the objectives for security officers are
4 complied with?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. That's a part of her responsibilities as
7 operations manager, do you agree?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Would you expect your operations manager on a
10 week-by-week or month-by-month basis to pay
11 attention to whether or not her security
12 officers were complying with these objectives?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Would you expect your operations manager if, in
15 some respect, she noted that her security
16 officers were not complying with the rules set
17 forth in these objectives to take some action to
18 correct that situation?
19 A. She would take action. There could be a very
20 specific reason which she would delve into and
21 explore and find out why.
22 Q. If there were reasons or explanations, would it
23 still be your expectation that these objectives
24 would be followed?
25 A. Yes.
35
1 Q. At least on a routine basis, if there weren't
2 some emergency situations?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. It would be company policy, at least at your
5 store, that the rules set forth in these
6 objectives would be complied with, is that
7 correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Item No. 8 under the objectives, reads, quote,
10 "Document all incidents in the..." and this
11 phrase is underlined "...security incident log
12 book with detailed reports to assure proper
13 follow up. Reports should be stored in the file
14 cabinets in the south store executive office."
15 Are you familiar with that?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. If a particular security officer, during the
18 course of years of employment, more than one
19 year of employment, at Dillard's never used the
20 security incident log book and never wrote
21 anything in the security log book, would you
22 consider that to be an infraction of the rules
23 and procedures of Dillard's?
24 A. Yes. However, it's just -- the log book is just
25 something to identify a case or whatever. It's
36
1 just a listing. It's not anything that has
2 anything to do specifically with any individual
3 case.
4 Q. Are you saying it's unimportant whether or not
5 security officer documents all incidents in the
6 security incident log book?
7 A. No, no. The documentation that we request -- we
8 want every incident documented. We realize that
9 occasionally somebody could forget to put it in
10 the log book and the log book is a convenient
11 thing for us just to identify if we get a call
12 that somebody has to go to court or whatever.
13 Q. This Paragraph 8 requires that reports be stored
14 in a file cabinet in the south store executive
15 office. Do you understand that the word
16 reports refers to reports written by the
17 security officer after each incident?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Is the south store executive office where Marvie
20 Dirks has her office?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. So that's where you would expect that the
23 security officers report would be filed, in
24 Marvie Dirks' office?
25 A. Yes.
37
1 Q. In addition, the first sentence of Paragraph 8
2 says, "Document all incidents in the security
3 log book with detailed reports to assure proper
4 follow up." Is it your understanding that the
5 security incident log book has some detailed
6 report stating what the incident was about in
7 the log book?
8 A. I don't know, I can't answer that.
9 Q. Is it your expectation that from this objective
10 there would be such detailed reports in the
11 security incident log book?
12 A. I don't know, I can't answer that.
13 Q. Do you know whether or not most security
14 officers put detailed reports in the security
15 incident log book?
16 A. I don't know, I have never looked.
17 Q. Would you consider it an incident, as that word
18 is used in Paragraph 8, would you consider it an
19 incident if a customer complained that a
20 security officer had mistreated her in any way
21 because she was an African-American?
22 A. Repeat that again, will you?
23 MR. BENSON: Read it back, please.
24 (The pending question was read by the
25 reporter.)
38
1 A. No, it would not be in this.
2 Q. (By Mr. Benson) It would not be considered to
3 be an incident?
4 A. It wouldn't fall into this bracket of an
5 incident report that would be developed by a
6 police officer.
7 Q. Would such a complaint based upon race result in
8 any kind of writing or written record?
9 A. I don't know. I can't even answer that. I
10 don't know.
11 Q. Would it be of any interest to you, meaning
12 would you want to know, if an African-American
13 security officer working at Dillard's at Oak
14 Park Mall had herself been subjected to
15 surveillance because she was African-American?
16 A. Would I want to know?
17 Q. Yes.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Have any such incidents been brought to your
20 attention?
21 A. No.
22 Q. If security guards, security officers, working
23 at Dillard's at Oak Park Mall had complained to
24 their supervisors that they believed
25 African-American shoppers were being more
39
1 heavily monitored than were white shoppers at
2 your store, would you expect the supervisors to
3 report that to you?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Have any such reports been conveyed to you?
6 A. No.
7 MS. KOCH: Are you asking ever?
8 Q. (By Mr. Benson) In your memory, at Oak Park
9 Mall?
10 A. I don't remember of any specific incidents.
11 Q. You would take that seriously if happened,
12 wouldn't you?
13 A. Absolutely.
14 Q. It's likely that if such a report had come to
15 you you would remember it had happened?
16 A. Uh-huh.
17 Q. Is that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. If shoppers at Oak Park Mall, at the Dillard's
20 store at Oak Park Mall, had believed that they
21 had their bags or their purses or belongings
22 searched because they were African-American and
23 had made a complaint about that, would you
24 expect that complaint to eventually be brought
25 to your attention?
40
1 A. I would think that would depend on the
2 circumstances. If it was resolved
3 satisfactorily, I wouldn't expect it to be.
4 Q. Prior to this lawsuit having been filed, are you
5 aware of any other lawsuit having been filed
6 alleging that Dillard's at Oak Park Mall treated
7 its African-American customers differently than
8 its white customers with respect to searches or
9 suspicion of shoplifting?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Have you ever heard -- has it been brought to
12 your attention that a woman named Dana Brown
13 sued Dillard's alleging race discrimination?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. What did you understand the basis of her
16 complaint to be?
17 A. That was a case of mistaken identity.
18 Q. She was mistakenly identified as a shoplifter?
19 A. No.
20 Q. How was she mistakenly identified?
21 A. It was thought that she was another individual
22 that had been banned from the store for
23 shoplifting.
24 Q. What happened? She was stopped?
25 A. She was approached out in the mall by a mall
41
1 security officer and requested identification.
2 Q. She had been banned from the mall or from
3 Dillard's?
4 A. At that time, whenever any of the major
5 department stores ban an individual, for
6 whatever the reason, why the mall followed along
7 with that ban simply because they felt they were
8 undesirable in the stores they were undesirable
9 in the mall, period.
10 Q. Are you aware that she had been banned by
11 Dillard's originally? Excuse me, that the
12 person she was mistaken for had been banned by
13 Dillard's?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Are you aware that Dana Brown alleged that there
16 was a racial component to her treatment by
17 Dillard's?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Are you aware whether or not in her lawsuit she
20 alleged that Dillard's and other stores at Oak
21 Park Mall have a profile of suspected
22 shoplifters that in part was based upon race?
23 A. Not that I am aware of, no.
24 Q. Are you aware of whether or not Dana Brown was
25 African-American?
42
1 A. Yes, I believe she was.
2 Q. Is it your understanding that Dana Brown alleged
3 in her lawsuit that she was stopped in part
4 because she was African-American?
5 A. I don't know.
6 Q. Is it not correct that the woman who had been
7 banned by Dillard's was an African-American, the
8 woman for whom Dana Brown was mistaken?
9 A. I would assume she was, simply because mistaken
10 identity would be from that standpoint, but
11 other than that I don't know.
12 Q. Is it your understanding that Dana Brown would
13 not have been mistakenly stopped if she were not
14 an African-American because the woman banned was
15 an African-American?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. So are you aware that Dana Brown, at least in
18 part, alleged in her lawsuit against Dillard's
19 that she was stopped because she was
20 African-American?
21 A. I don't know that. I don't know the details of
22 the lawsuit.
23 Q. Did the Dana Brown lawsuit, when it came to your
24 attention, cause you to take any steps to make
25 certain that customers at your store at
43
1 Dillard's were not treated differently because
2 they were African-American?
3 A. As I remember it, we sent out a note to the
4 police officers, in essence, instructing them to
5 be very, very careful and so forth. I am sure
6 it was a -- I haven't seen it, I don't remember
7 what it was involved with, we would have talked
8 to them at some point in time about be very
9 sure, be very careful before anything happens.
10 I don't know the exact gist what it was about,
11 but we did react to that.
12 Q. Did it say anything about taking care to treat
13 people equally irrespective of their race?
14 A. I don't remember the details of the note, or the
15 conversation that was had, I don't remember the
16 details of that particular part of it.
17 Q. Would a copy of that note still be in your file
18 somewhere?
19 A. I am sure it isn't.
20 Q. You are sure it is not?
21 A. Is not.
22 Q. Do you know of anyone who likely would have a
23 copy of that note?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Would Marvie Dirks likely have a copy of that
44
1 note?
2 A. No. I am sure she doesn't.
3 Q. Can you think of any steps that Dillard's has
4 taken after the Dana Brown lawsuit was filed to
5 make certain that its African-American customers
6 are treated equally to its white customers?
7 MS. KOCH: I object to your question
8 to the extent it assumes that any steps were
9 necessary just because the Dana Brown case was
10 filed.
11 Q. (By Mr. Benson) You may answer.
12 A. Nothing specific.
13 Q. Are you aware, if not anything specific, of
14 anything generally that was done after the Dana
15 Brown lawsuit to assure that your
16 African-American customers are treated equally
17 to your white customers?
18 MS. KOCH: Again, I object to that
19 question to the extent it assumes a fact not in
20 evidence, which is that African-American
21 customers are allegedly treated differently than
22 white customers.
23 A. We periodically put out in our little newspaper,
24 Mr. Rodgers' Neighborhood, if you please, that
25 customer service is obviously the intent of our
45
1 direction, and we want to be sure that everybody
2 is helped to the nth degree and treated equally,
3 fairly. It's just part of an ongoing customer
4 service profile that we try to get out to
5 employees.
6 Q. Is Mr. Rodgers Neighborhood the name of an
7 in-house publication?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. How often is that published?
10 A. Depending on the time of the year, once or twice
11 a month.
12 Q. Do you recall if within the last two or three
13 years anything has been written in Mr. Rodgers'
14 Neighborhood that specifically refers to race,
15 treating customers equally irrespective of their
16 race?
17 A. Certainly nothing that would be race, from that
18 standpoint. The big thing is just customer
19 service, period.
20 Q. Are you aware of anything in writing, if not in
21 Mr. Rodgers' Neighborhood, in any other
22 documents or directives or memos, circulated
23 among employees of Dillard's at Oak Park Mall,
24 cautioning your employees to treat Dillard's
25 African-American customers equally with
46
1 customers of other races?
2 A. No, not that I am aware of.
3 MS. KOCH: I need to take a quick
4 break when it's a good breaking point for you.
5 We have been going about an hour.
6 MR. BENSON: Okay.
7 (A recess was taken.)
8 MS. KOCH: I conferred with the
9 witness during the break, and I had suspected he
10 had misunderstood one of your questions, and he
11 needs to make a clarification.
12 Your question about whether the
13 witness had ever heard of any complaints by
14 African-Americans, I don't remember the exact
15 wording of your question, but whether he had
16 ever heard of any complaints by
17 African-Americans about their treatment at
18 Dillard's, and I believe -- the record will
19 speak for itself, but I believe the witness said
20 no. And I believe he thought you were asking
21 whether he personally had received the
22 complaints, and the witness would like to make a
23 clarification.
24 Q. (By Mr. Benson) You may make a clarification.
25 A. To answer the question, yes, I had heard, and we
47
1 addressed those at that time. My understanding
2 was that you were asking if I personally had
3 heard.
4 Q. When most recently have you heard of a complaint
5 of race discrimination?
6 MS. KOCH: I assume you are meaning
7 other than this litigation?
8 MR. BENSON: Yes.
9 A. Probably the Dana Brown thing would have been
10 the last one.
11 Q. (By Mr. Benson) What steps did you take to
12 investigate the Dana Brown complaint of race
13 discrimination?
14 MS. KOCH: I object to the extent the
15 question invades the attorney-client privilege.
16 Q. (By Mr. Benson) I am asking what you did?
17 A. Personally?
18 Q. Or what Dillard's did under your direction.
19 MS. KOCH: Same objection.
20 A. I don't know of anything specifically that was
21 done based on that incident.
22 Q. (By Mr. Benson) When next before the Dana Brown
23 incident has knowledge of a complaint of race
24 discrimination come to your attention?
25 MS. KOCH: I think you have changed
48
1 the term, you are using race discrimination now.
2 Earlier you were asking questions generally
3 about mistreatment --
4 MR. BENSON: Based on race.
5 MS. KOCH: -- based on race.
6 Q. (By Mr. Benson) When most immediately prior to
7 the Dana Brown incident have complaints of
8 mistreatment based on race or other forms of
9 race discrimination made by Dillard's customers
10 come to your attention?
11 A. Certainly nothing in recent years.
12 Q. Do you recall anything specific that has come to
13 your attention in that regard since you became
14 the store manager at Dillard's?
15 A. Four or five years ago.
16 Q. What happened four or five years ago?
17 A. There were some reports of some associates in
18 the store that it was felt were requesting
19 back-up and security, et cetera, in situations
20 that could be construed as that, and we
21 addressed that at that time when it was brought
22 to our attention.
23 Q. Are you saying that sales associates requested
24 security and back-up involving customers who
25 were African-Americans?
49
1 A. Yes, that was the circumstance at the time.
2 Q. You had not remembered this before the break,
3 and this has now come back, you now recall these
4 complaints? Earlier in the deposition I asked
5 you questions about whether or not you were
6 aware of any complaints having come to your
7 attention involving customers who believed that
8 they have been treated different?
9 A. That is the one that I said I thought you were
10 referring directly to me. That particular
11 situation that I referred to was handled within
12 the parameters of the operations manager.
13 Q. Now, this incident that you say took place, the
14 series of incidents that you say took place four
15 or five years ago involving sales associates
16 requiring security or back-up, cases involving
17 African-American customers, did those come to
18 your attention at or reasonably soon after the
19 incidents occurred?
20 A. It would have been after the fact.
21 Q. Within days or weeks after the fact?
22 A. Probably days, at the most.
23 Q. Were these complaints spread out over a period
24 of a year or two?
25 A. I don't remember specifically the time frame.
50
1 Q. Did the complaints come from customers?
2 A. I don't remember any particular customers that
3 would have come -- I really don't remember all
4 the circumstances that involved that part of it,
5 because again, my direction has always been we
6 want everybody treated equally. That's the
7 program that goes through the store, so that's
8 the delegatory responsibility that I give to my
9 next in line. And they were handled at that
10 time, and I really can't give you specifics at
11 this point.
12 Q. Your next in line is the operations manager, is
13 that correct?
14 A. The operations manager is the No. 2 person in
15 the store. Obviously, when she is on duty she
16 is the one that normally would be involved.
17 However, when she is not there, then the other
18 two merchandise managers -- these two that are
19 in here now would not have been around at that
20 point in time, it would be two different ones.
21 Q. If there is a complaint that a sales associate
22 is calling security inappropriately on
23 African-American shoppers, that would fall
24 within the supervisory responsibility of the
25 operations manager?
51
1 A. That probably would have gone right to her.
2 Q. Even if she weren't on duty when it happened, it
3 would be reported to her when she came back on
4 duty, is that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Those are the kind of incidents that you believe
7 are serious enough that they should be reported
8 to you, is that right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And there were a series of these that took place
11 four or five years ago, is that correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Were they all reported to you -- all the reports
14 that reached you, did they come from Marvie
15 Dirks?
16 A. I would have to say yes.
17 Q. Were they in writing or verbal?
18 A. That would depend on the circumstance.
19 Q. We are talking about the series of incidents now
20 that you have described. Do you recall whether
21 those incidents were written up, or any of them
22 were.
23 MS. KOCH: I object to the form of
24 your question as mischaracterizing the witness'
25 previous testimony. His words were reports of
52
1 some associates requesting security and back-up,
2 and you have been using the term series of
3 incidents. Go ahead.
4 A. Would you repeat that, please?
5 Q. (By Mr. Benson) Sure. The reports of
6 associates requesting security and back-up with
7 respect to African-American customers, that's
8 what you have described to me, is that correct?
9 A. That would have been part of it, yes.
10 Q. That's what I am talking about now. This
11 involves more than one sales associate, I take
12 it, is that correct?
13 A. Yes. I don't remember the number exactly, but
14 it would have been more than one.
15 Q. Was it more than five sales associates involved
16 in this matter?
17 A. No, I am sure it wasn't.
18 Q. Are we talking about two, three or four sales
19 associates involved in this matter?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. In that range?
22 A. Uh-huh.
23 Q. Correct?
24 A. Yes. Sorry.
25 Q. How many reports were made to supervisors coming
53
1 from each of these sales associates, was this
2 something the sale associates were involved in
3 over a period of time before the matter was
4 addressed?
5 A. No. The matter would have been addressed right
6 away once we were apprised of the situation, we
7 would address it right away.
8 Q. In these two to four sales associates who were
9 involved and on whom reports were made, that's
10 what I am referring to as the series of
11 incidents, okay?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Now, when this series of incidents occurred, I
14 take it it occurred over some period of time.
15 What is your best estimate as to how long that
16 period of time was, within which each of the
17 incidents occurred?
18 A. I don't remember a time frame. I would be
19 guessing if I said one at this point.
20 Q. Were there reports of any of this series
21 incidents that were made in writing to you?
22 A. No.
23 Q. You received a report on the series of incidents
24 verbally?
25 A. Verbally.
54
1 Q. From Marvie Dirks?
2 A. Most probably, uh-huh.
3 Q. Did you ask her to investigate the matter?
4 A. Oh, absolutely, yes.
5 Q. When she completed her investigation did she
6 report her findings back to you?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Is that in writing?
9 A. No, it would have been verbal.
10 Q. Did she tell you what, in any, corrective action
11 she was undertaking?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. What was that?
14 A. Basically counseling the associates that
15 everybody is treated equally and a customer is a
16 customer regardless of race, creed, color,
17 gender, you name it.
18 Q. At that time was there any doubt in your mind
19 that these series of incidents had, in fact,
20 occurred as reported?
21 A. No. I have no reason to not believe it.
22 Q. Did Marvie Dirks express to you any reasons to
23 doubt whether or not this series of incidents
24 had, in fact, occurred?
25 A. Not that I remember.
55
1 Q. Do you know whether or not any of the corrective
2 actions that she took resulted in any document
3 being written or any writing being circulated?
4 A. I don't know the answer to that.
5 Q. Do you know whether or not it resulted in any
6 additional training for all sales associates?
7 A. I don't remember anything that would have been
8 over and above the normal thing.
9 Q. I am asking now about any training that would
10 have been specific on this matter of treating
11 customers on the basis of race?
12 A. No.
13 Q. So your answer is you are not aware that any
14 specific training on the basis of race was
15 provided to sales associates, is that correct?
16 A. No, no, there wasn't.
17 Q. Do you know what follow-up has been undertaken
18 by Dillard's since that time to determine
19 whether or not similar incidents are still
20 occurring?
21 A. Other than the fact just to be more sensitive to
22 that type of thing. Obviously, you watch it all
23 the time.
24 Q. This is something that Marvie Dirks should watch
25 all the time, is that what you are saying?
56
1 A. It would be a total management program.
2 Q. Do you know what is meant by the phrase cultural
3 diversity training?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Have you ever heard that phrase before or
6 anything similar to it?
7 A. Not that I recall.
8 Q. Do you know what is meant by the phrase
9 sensitivity training?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. What is your understanding of what sensitivity
12 training is?
13 A. For example, we use sensitivity -- the
14 sensitivity mentality, in my opinion, would be
15 sensitive to customer's needs all the way
16 through the store in every aspect.
17 Q. What is your understanding what the phrase
18 sensitivity training means?
19 A. I'm not sure I understand what you are looking
20 for. We have a series of films, et cetera, that
21 we show our associates periodically that talk
22 about customer service, and I am the customer
23 and all this sort of thing, that we show
24 periodically to all new hires and so forth.
25 Customer service training.
57
1 Q. Did these films have segments in them that are
2 particularly aimed at treating customers equally
3 on the basis of their race?
4 A. No. It's treat every customer equal.
5 Q. Let me put it this way: Do you know if these
6 films that you have just referred to have
7 portions that are directed to making sure that
8 customers are treated equally in spite of the
9 differing racial backgrounds they bring when
10 they come to the store?
11 A. No.
12 Q. To your knowledge there are no such segments, is
13 that correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Have you ever looked at the security incident
16 log book yourself personally?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Would it be of any interest to you to know
19 whether or not the incidents written in the
20 security log book customarily use identifying
21 terms other than race?
22 A. I would have no interest in that.
23 Q. Would it be of any interest to you to know that
24 the persons described in the incidents entered
25 into the security incident log book when they
58
1 have any identification data that it's almost
2 invariably racial data, would that be of any
3 interest to you?
4 A. (Witness shakes head.)
5 MS. KOCH: I object to the extent your
6 question mischaracterized the evidence. Go
7 ahead.
8 A. No.
9 Q. (By Mr. Benson) Does it serve any security or
10 corporate purpose for the security incident log
11 book to identify persons engaged in incidents as
12 black female versus white female, does that
13 serve any purpose?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Would the fact that often entries in the
16 security incident log book describe persons by
17 their race indicate that security officers are
18 paying attention to the race of the people with
19 whom they come into contact?
20 MS. KOCH: Object to the form of your
21 question as calling for speculation on the part
22 of this witness as to why security officers list
23 race or sex or anything in their incident
24 reports.
25 MR. BENSON: I didn't ask him that
59
1 question.
2 Q. (By Mr. Benson) Do you understand my question?
3 A. Repeat it, please.
4 Q. Would it indicate to you that security officers
5 are paying attention to the race of customers at
6 Dillard's because they enter the race of
7 customers they deal with in the security
8 incident log book?
9 MS. KOCH: Again, I object to the form
10 of your question as vague and calling for
11 speculation.
12 A. No.
13 Q. (By Mr. Benson) Based on your understanding,
14 why is the race of customers entered in the
15 security incident log book incidents reported by
16 security officers when it is reported?
17 MS. KOCH: Object to the form of your
18 question as calling for speculation.
19 A. I have no idea.
20 Q. (By Mr. Benson) Can you think of any reason why
21 security officers would enter the race of
22 customers in the incidents they write up in the
23 security incident log book?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Is it the policy of Dillard's at Oak Park Mall
60
1 that all customers be treated in a racially
2 neutral manner?
3 A. Well, yes. I am assuming that means equal, so
4 absolutely.
5 Q. That all customers be equally irrespective of
6 whatever race they may be, is that correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Would it be in conformance with that policy of
9 Oak Park Mall Dillard's for security officers to
10 record that a customer was a black female in
11 writing up an incident in the security incident
12 log book?
13 MS. KOCH: Object to the form of that
14 question as vague and calling for speculation.
15 A. I have no idea. I couldn't address that.
16 Q. (By Mr. Benson) Does it cause you any concern
17 about whether or not the company policy at
18 Dillard's at Oak Park Mall that customers be
19 treated equally on the basis of race was being
20 complied with when security officers enter black
21 female as the notation in an incident they write
22 in the security incident log book?
23 A. Repeat that, would you, please?
24 MR. BENSON: It always sounds better
25 when they read it.
61
1 (The pending question was read by the
2 reporter.)
3 A. No.
4 Q. (By Mr. Benson) That's of no concern to you, is
5 that correct?
6 A. No, I would have no reason to.
7 Q. In this particular case, an incident occurred on
8 April 5th, 1996, involving the two plaintiffs in
9 this case, Paula Hampton and Demetria Cooper.
10 On that date, Hampton and Cooper went to
11 customer service. Are you aware of whether or
12 not within a few days after April 5th, 1996, it
13 came to your attention that the customer had
14 raised the complaint of racial discrimination?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. How did that come to your attention?
17 A. Because of the nature of the incident and the
18 threats of the legal action that was in there, I
19 was apprised of it, probably that afternoon or
20 the next day, very shortly after that.
21 Q. Verbally or in writing?
22 A. Verbally.
23 Q. By whom?
24 A. Most likely Marvie.
25 Q. Did you take any action or issue any directions
62
1 after you were advised of this incident?
2 A. I reviewed the incident, read the incident
3 report, I was very satisfied at that point that
4 we had done everything within the parameters of
5 Kansas law and that there was nothing that we
6 had a problem with.
7 Q. When you say you read the incident report, are
8 you referring to the report written by the
9 security officer, Mr. Wilson?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Did you read anything else?
12 A. Probably not. Most everything would have been
13 in that report -- or everything that I am aware
14 of would have been in that report.
15 Q. The report you are referring to, I believe, is a
16 two-page report. Does that sound about right to
17 you? Do you know what you were referring to as
18 the report?
19 A. That looks like it right there.
20 (Rodgers Deposition Exhibit No. 4 was
21 marked for identification.)
22 A. Assuming that that is the same report.
23 Q. (By Mr. Benson) Showing you now what's been
24 marked as Deposition Exhibit 4. And I will tell
25 you that Mr. Wilson identified this as a copy of
63
1 his report, although the right margin has been
2 but off a little bit in the copying, but he
3 identified this as a copy of his report at his
4 deposition last week. Is that what you believe
5 you read when you were looking into the matter?
6 A. I am sure it is.
7 Q. To the best of your recollection, is that all
8 that you read at the time?
9 A. I am sure, yes. I am sure it was, yes.
10 Q. Did you read this within a day or two of the
11 incident?
12 A. Probably the next morning.
13 Q. Was Mr. Wilson's report or a copy of it given to
14 you by Marvie Dirks?
15 A. Yes, I am sure it was.
16 Q. Other than reading this two-page Wilson report,
17 was there anything else on which you based your
18 determination that Dillard's had done everything
19 proper under Kansas law?
20 A. This would have been it.
21 Q. After you made your determination that Dillard's
22 had acted properly under Kansas law, was
23 anything else taken -- any other steps taken at
24 your request or your direction?
25 A. No.
64
1 Q. As far as you were concerned that was the end of
2 the matter?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. At the time you were reviewing Mr. Wilson's
5 report, did it occur to you that sometime before
6 there had been this series of incidents that had
7 been reported in which there were complaints
8 that African-American customers had been
9 subjected to surveillance?
10 A. Well, yes, it would have been, obviously because
11 I was involved in that prior to that.
12 Q. My question is did this April 5th incident
13 involving Hampton and Cooper recall to your mind
14 this series of incidents that had taken place
15 two or three years before?
16 A. Not specifically, no.
17 Q. At the time you reviewed this Wilson report
18 after this Hampton/Cooper incident, did you take
19 any other steps to reassure yourself that
20 African-American customers were not being
21 subjected to additional security when they were
22 visiting your store because they were
23 African-Americans?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Did you understand that that was at the heart of
65
1 the complaint to customer service by Paula
2 Hampton and Demetria Cooper that they had been
3 singled out because of their race?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Did you understand they were African-Americans?
6 A. After the fact, I mean I wasn't there.
7 Q. When the incident was described to you, you
8 understood that --
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. -- that the customers involved were
11 African-Americans?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Are you aware of any efforts by any employees of
14 Dillard's at Oak Park Mall to compile data on
15 persons stopped or apprehended for suspicion of
16 theft at Dillard's that includes data based on
17 their race?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Would it be of any interest to you to know
20 whether or not African-Americans are stopped or
21 apprehended at Dillard's in numbers far in
22 excess of their proportion of resident
23 population of Johnson County, Kansas?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Have you caused any investigation to be made at
66
1 any time in the last five or six years to
2 determine whether or not African-American
3 customers at Dillard's at Oak Park Mall are
4 being subjected to heavier surveillance when
5 they visit your store compared to the
6 surveillance to which whites are subjected?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Do you know what training Marvie Dirks has in
9 security or loss prevention or related matters?
10 A. Probably -- other than the experience level she
11 has had over the course of the years, I don't
12 recall any specific program geared specifically
13 in that direction by the company. Her latitude
14 of her functions are such that there is lot more
15 to her job responsibility.
16 Q. Is it correct that security is just one of many
17 functions in the job responsibilities of Marvie
18 Dirks?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. What are some of the other primary functions of
21 Marvie Dirks?
22 A. She is over all maintenance in the store. She
23 is over all dock housekeeping in the store. She
24 is over customer service in the store. She is
25 over the personnel, clerical functions within
67
1 the store. She is in charge of all lease
2 departments.
3 Q. Do you know whether or not she has attended any
4 seminars or obtained any formal training in
5 personnel and human resources matters?
6 A. I don't know of any.
7 Q. Do you know whether or not she has attended any
8 off-site seminars or training courses on any
9 subject as long as she has been operations
10 manager.
11 A. Oh, let's see. I don't know of anything
12 specific. For example, if there is a new
13 housekeeping program she will be involved in the
14 initial initiation of that program, but as far
15 as -- I don't think you would call it a seminar.
16 Q. Do you know what training is provided to newly
17 hired security officers at Dillard's at Oak
18 Park?
19 A. Well, one of the reasons that we use off duty
20 policemen is because we feel they are the best
21 equipped, best trained individuals to have on
22 our payroll in the security function. Several
23 years ago when the corporation decided to go
24 with commissioned police officers, I met with
25 Myron Scafe, who is the --
68
1 Q. How do you spell that name?
2 A. I think it is S-c-h-a-f-f, I believe. He is a
3 former police chief of Overland Park?
4 THE WITNESS: Am I spelling that
5 right?
6 MS. FINNELL: S-c-a-f-e.
7 A. That's it. And asked him specifically for some
8 direction and guidance on exactly how to set
9 this up. And it was his opinion that basically
10 three things. Use police officers from Overland
11 Park and the surrounding cities because Overland
12 Park did not have enough officers to supply the
13 security needs we had.
14 And the second thing was to use the
15 training skills of the individuals on the police
16 force in the store, much more effective, much
17 better trained, et cetera.
18 And the third thing was to use an
19 individual police officer to direct the staffing
20 and so forth in the store so that they
21 understood the shift changes and all that sort
22 of thing, to be much more effective. So that's
23 the direction we took. Their training, again,
24 is the reason that we use them.
25 Q. (By Mr. Benson) Do you know whether
69
1 commissioned police officers are trained in loss
2 prevention and retail shoplifting prevention?
3 A. I don't know that specifically. That was the
4 reason I went to him initially in the first
5 place was the get some direction.
6 Q. Do you know whether or not Highway Patrol
7 officers or any commissioned officers receive
8 training in retail security work as a part of
9 their police training?
10 A. I don't know the answer to that specifically.
11 Q. What training do security officers receive when
12 they first are hired to work as security
13 officers at Dillard's at Oak Park Mall?
14 A. The normal procedure is for them to be a buddy
15 of an existing officer and work in a buddy
16 system type thing, until they are familiar with
17 the set up in the store.
18 Q. The training consists of on-the-job training
19 provided by a more experienced security officer?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Any other training provided to the security
22 officers when they are initially hired at
23 Dillard's?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Are you aware as to whether or not, at any time
70
1 in the last several years, there has been a
2 change in the policy of the security operation
3 at Dillard's with respect to whether or not
4 shoplifting, on the one hand, is to be
5 discouraged by obvious presence of security
6 officers, as opposed to, on the other hand,
7 surveillance and apprehension after the fact of
8 a shoplifting? Do you know whether there has
9 there been such a policy change?
10 A. There has been no change. We would obviously
11 prefer deterrent as opposed -- I would love to
12 have uniformed police officers in the store all
13 the time. Unfortunately, the only city within
14 the parameter that we use that we can do that
15 with is the City of Overland Park. That's all
16 that will allow it. So we are forced to go the
17 other direction. We would much prefer to deter
18 it.
19 Q. Are you saying at that there is an insufficient
20 number of officers available to work as security
21 guards from Overland Park?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Do you use --
24 A. Well, part of it -- let me clarify that. When I
25 first went down and talked to Myron, it was his
71
1 recommendation that we go with the parameters of
2 the other cities simply because he could not
3 guarantee that he could give you enough security
4 from Overland Park completely. So we currently
5 are using them from six or seven different
6 cities within the area.
7 Q. Do you have a sufficient number of security
8 officers, do you have as many as you desire, as
9 many as you budgeted for?
10 A. Well, the situation today is unique because we
11 are under construction, so we have added a
12 substantial number of officers to help with that
13 simply because we are much more vulnerable now
14 just because of the ups and downs and ins and
15 outs of construction.
16 Q. When you decided to hire more because of the
17 construction now underway, were you able to find
18 security guards to take the positions you then
19 had to offer?
20 A. At this point, I think we still have openings
21 that we would be interested in.
22 Q. When the construction is complete you will go
23 back to a more normal level of security
24 staffing?
25 A. Probably so.
72
1 Q. When do you expect that to happen?
2 A. We will have additional -- we will have more
3 than we had prior to when we started because we
4 are expanding the building, so we will have more
5 than we had before.
6 Q. You expect to be able to fill all those
7 positions after the construction is over?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. A year or two ago before you got heavily into
10 the construction, you were able to keep your
11 security positions filled, is that correct?
12 A. No, we still needed security people.
13 Q. Is there a high rate of turnover among your
14 security personnel, higher than you prefer?
15 A. Well, you never like to lose one for any reason.
16 The biggest challenge we have with the staffing
17 is that some may work as small as four hours a
18 week, some may work up to 30 sometimes. During
19 vacations we have a challenge when they are used
20 in their respective areas.
21 Q. Do you know whether or not at any time in the
22 last several years Marvie Dirks has directed the
23 security personnel at Dillard's to put a greater
24 emphasis upon apprehension and a reduced
25 emphasis upon deterrence of shoplifting?
73
1 A. No, no.
2 Q. Do you know whether or not the security
3 personnel are rewarded in any way for either
4 successful apprehensions or successful recovery
5 of Dillard's merchandise?
6 A. No. In fact, most of them cannot do anything
7 like that. They tell us right up front, we
8 can't receive anything.
9 Q. Do you know whether or not security personnel
10 receive any preferential treatment based upon
11 their success in apprehensions or recovering of
12 Dillard's merchandise?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Do you know whether or not the security officers
15 receive a higher priority in selecting work
16 shifts based upon their success in -- successful
17 apprehensions or recovery of Dillard's
18 merchandise?
19 A. No. The biggest single thing is just
20 availability.
21 Q. Do you know whether or not security personnel
22 receive any preference for which shifts they
23 work, how long they work, based upon their
24 success in successful apprehensions or recovery
25 of Dillard's merchandise?
74
1 A. I don't know of any specific correlation there.
2 Q. Do you know whether or not it's a policy to
3 reward security officers at Dillard's at Oak
4 Park Mall with the right to select what shifts
5 they work or how long they work based upon their
6 success in apprehensions or recovering Dillard's
7 merchandise?
8 A. Not specifically that. Their effectiveness
9 totally is looked at.
10 Q. Are you aware at any time in the last four or
11 five years of having been warned by police
12 officials of the City of Overland Park that
13 security personnel at Dillard's Oak Park Mall
14 were acting in an excessively aggressive manner
15 toward your customers?
16 A. Are you talking me personally, or the store?
17 Q. Either. Are you aware of Dillard's at Oak Park
18 Mall, either to you or to Marvie Dirks or
19 whomever, having been warned by someone from the
20 Overland Park Police Department that some
21 security personnel at Dillard's were acting in a
22 excessively aggressive manner toward your
23 customers?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Was that focused on a particular security
75
1 personnel or just in general that some security
2 personnel were acting too aggressively?
3 A. The one I am familiar with specifically was one
4 individual.
5 Q. Was his name Sanchez?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. His full-time job is with the Kansas Highway
8 Patrol?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. What steps were taken in response to that
11 warning from the Overland Park Police
12 Department?
13 A. We sat down and discussed the matter with him,
14 gave him specific direction how he should
15 conduct himself, and addressed that point, and
16 have not heard anything since.
17 Q. He has remained employed as a security officer
18 by Dillard's?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. When it came to your attention that one security
21 officer may or may not have been acting in an
22 excessively aggressive manner, did that cause
23 you to caution all security personnel as to the
24 limits to their aggressivity?
25 A. I am sure we did.
76
1 Q. The lesson you learned from this one incident
2 you shared with all your security officers?
3 A. I am sure we did, yes.
4 Q. Are you reasonably confident that the problem of
5 excessive aggressiveness by your security
6 personnel has now been solved?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Do you believe it's been solved because you took
9 a proactive approach when you were warned there
10 were problems?
11 A. Yes.
12 MS. KOCH: I object to the extent you
13 are mischaracterizing the evidence, since we are
14 talking about one security officer, but the
15 record will speak for itself.
16 Q. (By Mr. Benson) I take it you consider it to be
17 an accomplishment on your part that you nipped a
18 problem in the bud and used that as an example
19 to improve the quality of security at Oak Park
20 Mall?
21 A. No, I would not say I nipped anything in the
22 bud. We took this one example and used it a
23 criteria and saying here is what we want you be
24 sure you understand the direction is. There was
25 nothing significant that we understood was
77
1 anything more than one individual.
2 Q. You used it as a lesson for all your security
3 personnel about the importance of following your
4 rules and regulations?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. You believe that was an appropriate step to
7 take, don't you?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. I take it you have not had any specific
10 incidents that have given you concern about
11 overly aggressive security personnel since that
12 incident, since that one matter, is that
13 correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Whether it was necessary or not, you believe
16 it's been successful in seeing that the rules
17 and procedures for security personnel at
18 Dillard's are being complied with?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. When your security personnel make mistakes, as
21 may happen from time to time, do you expect
22 security personnel to apologize to the customers
23 who were the victims of the mistake?
24 A. I don't how to answer that. I am assuming at
25 the time that they wouldn't think it was a
78
1 mistake, or wouldn't realize it was a mistake.
2 Q. Let me give you a more specific example. If a
3 security guard asks a customer if he may look in
4 her bag, and the security guard looks in the bag
5 and finds that no items of merchandise has been
6 stolen, who you expect the security guard to
7 apologize to the customer at this point for any
8 inconvenience that may have been caused?
9 MS. KOCH: I object to the form of you
10 question as asking for speculation on the part
11 of this witness without fully setting forth the
12 hypothetical which involves the situation in
13 this case.
14 Q. (By Mr. Benson) You may answer.
15 A. The normal procedure would be we thank you for
16 your time, we are sorry for any inconvenience.
17 Q. That would be good customer relations, would it
18 not?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. In fact, that's a part of the rules and
21 procedures for Dillard's, if you determine there
22 was no crime committed, terminate the contact
23 with the customer and apologize for the
24 inconvenience?
25 A. Yes, sorry for the inconvenience, yes.
79
1 Q. You would expect that regulation to be complied
2 with by your security officers, would you not?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And the burden for apologizing would fall upon,
5 under this policy, the security officer, is that
6 correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. The customer wouldn't first have to ask for an
9 apology, isn't that right?
10 A. In that case, I think that's a fair statement,
11 yes.
12 Q. You wouldn't expect the customer to say at the
13 end of the search, "Are you going to apologize
14 now?"
15 A. No, I wouldn't expect that.
16 Q. In this particular case involving the Hampton
17 and Cooper women, it is reported to have started
18 in the area where the infants and boys sections
19 are on the second floor, are you aware of that?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. In the last, now it's about a year and a half,
22 have there been any major physical changes to
23 that area in terms of walls being moved?
24 A. No.
25 Q. That area remains basically the same now as it
80
1 did then, is that correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. The only major difference would be there would
4 be different merchandise there now than there
5 was then?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. The changing or fitting rooms still in the same
8 location?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And the support pillars, I am sure, are still in
11 the same locations?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. The pedestrian walkway that divide various
14 sections from each other are still in the same
15 locations?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. The display cases and racks and so forth, the
18 fixtures, anyway, are still in the same
19 location?
20 A. Those that are free-standing on the floor would
21 change as seasons change, and so forth.
22 Q. What I mean by fixtures, anything that is built
23 in or attached to the floor?
24 A. Absolutely, everything is.
25 MR. BENSON: Why don't we take a
81
1 three- or four-minute break and see if we can
2 wrap this up.
3 (A recess was taken.)
4 Q. (By Mr. Benson) You mentioned Dee Sands earlier
5 as the predecessor to Marvie Dirks as operations
6 manager, is that correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Is she still employed by Dillard's, do you know?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Where is she employed?
11 A. Metro North.
12 Q. Do you know what her title is?
13 A. Operations manager.
14 Q. Are you aware that other depositions have been
15 taken in this case before your deposition today?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Have you read any of those depositions or
18 skimmed through them?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Have you read any summaries of them?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Have they been described to you, the contents?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Are you aware of anything that has been said by
25 anybody in the deposition in this case prior to
82
1 today?
2 MS. KOCH: Object to the extent you
3 are asking for anything that may have been
4 discussed with counsel, and that would be part
5 of an attorney-client privilege.
6 Q. (By Mr. Benson) Let me rephrase the question.
7 After our first break today you came back and
8 said you needed to supplement your answer, do
9 you recall that?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. During that break, were you told anything about
12 what had been said by witnesses in the
13 deposition, prior deposition in this case.
14 MS. KOCH: Object to your question as
15 invading the attorney-client privilege.
16 MR. BENSON: There is no privilege
17 during breaks during depositions under the Hall
18 rule that is followed by almost all circuits in
19 the nation.
20 MS. KOCH: I will represent to you
21 that I did not say that. And as I said on the
22 record earlier, I did go over the question that
23 had been asked with the witness, and he did
24 clarify his answer.
25 Q. (By Mr. Benson) During that break, Mr. Rodgers,
83
1 was there any -- during the first break in this
2 deposition today, was there any discussion
3 during that break of what any other witness had
4 said in any prior deposition in this case?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Was there any discussion of what prior security
7 officers at Dillard's have said about treatment
8 of African-Americans in this case?
9 MS. KOCH: I will object to your
10 question as invading the attorney-client
11 privilege. To save time and a dispute later, I
12 allowed the witness to answer that question, but
13 we do not waive the attorney-client privilege.
14 A. No.
15 Q. (By Mr. Benson) Do you know whether or not at
16 Dillard's there is a radio code that is used to
17 identify shoppers by their race?
18 A. I was made aware of a code of some kind when
19 this young lady took the deposition of Mark
20 Blackwell, and he made the statement that there
21 was. Prior to that, I had no knowledge of it.
22 THE WITNESS: I am sorry. I have
23 forgotten your name because you came in
24 afterwards.
25 MS. FINNELL: That's okay.
84
1 Q. (By Mr. Benson) Are you aware of whether or not
2 security officers broadcast on the radios in
3 Dillard's at Oak Park Mall codes to identify
4 shoppers by their race when they enter the
5 store?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Are you aware of whether or not security
8 officers or some security officers at Dillard's
9 will radio such messages as Code 3 or Code 4
10 entering such and such a door, and describe the
11 door or the entrance?
12 A. I don't know how they do that.
13 Q. Are you aware that Codes 3 and 4 refer to
14 African-American males and females?
15 A. No, I have no idea.
16 Q. Before a customer is stopped in Dillard's and
17 asked to produce a bag to be searched, do you
18 believe that the security officer stopping the
19 customer should have hard evidence that
20 merchandise has been stolen from Dillard's.
21 MS. KOCH: I object to the form of
22 your question to the extent it's vague as to
23 hard evidence, and to the extent it asks for a
24 legal conclusion from this witness.
25 You may go ahead and answer.
85
1 A. I think it's back to reasonable cause, and if it
2 is felt that we need to investigate a situation