Document provided by Benson & Associates
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE DISTRICT OF KANSAS
3 PAULA DARLENE HAMPTON and
DEMETRIA COOPER,
4
Plaintiffs,
5
vs. No. 97-2182-KHV
6
DILLARD'S DEPARTMENT
7 STORES, INC.,
8 Defendant.
9
10 DEPOSITION OF GERALDINE JONES, a witness,
taken on behalf of the Plaintiffs, pursuant to
11 Notice, on the 11th day of September, 1997, at the
Overland Park Police Department, 12400 Foster,
12 Overland Park, Kansas, before
13 JUDY L. WHITEHOUSE,
14 of AAA Reporting Company, a Notary Public of the
State of Kansas.
15
APPEARANCES
16
For the Plaintiffs:
17 MS. KATHY D. FINNELL
ARTHUR BENSON & ASSOCIATES
18 1000 Walnut Street, Suite 1125
Kansas City, Missouri 64106-2123
19
20 For the Defendant:
MS. ELAINE DRODGE KOCH
21 SPENCER, FANE, BRITT & BROWNE
1000 Walnut Street, Suite 1400
22 Kansas City, Missouri 64106
23 For the City of Overland Park:
MR. MICHAEL R. SANTOS
24 ATTORNEY AT LAW
12400 Foster
25 Overland Park, Kansas
2
1 STIPULATION
2 It was stipulated by and between counsel
3 that the presentment of this deposition to the
4 witness by the officer is expressly waived, and that
5 if said deposition is not signed by the witness by
6 the time of the commencement of the trial, it may be
7 used as though signed.
8
9 INDEX
10 WITNESS: Geraldine Jones PAGE:
11 Examination by Ms. Finnell 3
Examination by Ms. Koch 35
12 Reexamination by Ms. Finnell 37
Reexamination by Ms. Koch 38
13
EXHIBITS (NONE)
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
3
1
2 (The deposition commenced at 1:25
3 p.m.)
4 GERALDINE JONES,
5 a witness, being first duly sworn, testified
6 under oath as follows:
7 EXAMINATION BY MS. FINNELL:
8 Q. Good afternoon, ma'am. My name is Kathy
9 Finnell. I am an attorney for the plaintiffs in
10 this matter, specifically Paula Hampton and
11 Demetria Cooper.
12 Will you please state your full name.
13 A. My name is Gerri Jones.
14 Q. That's G-e-r-r-i?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Is Gerri a nickname?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. What is your given name?
19 A. Geraldine Jones.
20 Q. Can you spell your first name?
21 A. G-e-r-a-l-d-i-n-e.
22 Q. What is your address, ma'am?
23 A. [Deleted]
24 Q. Is that --
25 A. [Deleted]
4
1 Q. Will you please describe your educational
2 background?
3 A. College.
4 Q. Where did you graduate high school?
5 A. Marshall High School in Missouri.
6 Q. Marshall, Missouri?
7 A. Uh-huh. And I attended three years at Central
8 Missouri State University in Warrensburg.
9 Q. Any degrees attained?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Any other college?
12 A. No.
13 Q. When did you begin working for the City of
14 Overland Park?
15 A. 1986.
16 Q. In what capacity did you first work with them?
17 A. As a police officer.
18 Q. By the way, I am sorry, when did you graduate
19 from high school?
20 A. '74, 1974.
21 Q. How long were you a police officer?
22 A. Six and a half years.
23 Q. When is it that you changed positions?
24 A. 1992, 1.
25 MR. SANTOS: We could find out for
5
1 certain if you like.
2 MS. FINNELL: That okay.
3 Q. (By Ms. Finnell) Somewhere around 1992?
4 A. Uh-huh.
5 Q. What department did you begin working for at
6 that time?
7 A. At that time -- I am just planning and zoning.
8 MR. SANTOS: That's correct.
9 Q. (By Ms. Finnell) Is that where you currently
10 are?
11 A. Correct.
12 Q. What is it your title?
13 A. Neighborhood Enforcement Specialist 2.
14 Q. Are you still a commissioned officer?
15 A. No.
16 Q. When did that end?
17 A. 19 -- around 1992. I do carry a commission
18 card, but not a police commission card.
19 Q. What kind of commission card do you carry?
20 MR. SANTOS: You want me to describe
21 it for you?
22 MS. FINNELL: I am trying to find out
23 what it is.
24 MR. SANTOS: The City has three types
25 of commission cards, law enforcement officers,
6
1 city officers and city officials. She has a
2 city officer commission card.
3 A. Sorry.
4 Q. (By Ms. Finnell) When you distinguished between
5 the two, I just wanted to make sure I
6 understood.
7 You have been a Neighborhood
8 Enforcement Specialist since '92, right?
9 A. Correct.
10 Q. Have you had any other jobs relating to law
11 enforcement other than your experience with the
12 Overland Park Police Department?
13 A. I worked security.
14 Q. Where was that?
15 A. During my time as a police officer. Dillard's
16 for approximately three years, three and a half.
17 Q. Was that in Oak Park?
18 A. Yes, Oak Park Mall.
19 Q. Anywhere else?
20 A. J.C. Penney outlet, approximately maybe two
21 years.
22 Q. Were those simultaneously or separate?
23 A. Probably simultaneously.
24 Q. You were working both of them off duty?
25 A. Yes.
7
1 Q. At the same time or over the same period of
2 time?
3 A. Correct.
4 Q. Have you ever been deposed before?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. When was that?
7 A. 1993.
8 Q. What were the circumstances of that deposition?
9 A. Lawsuit.
10 Q. Were you a witness or a party?
11 A. Party.
12 Q. What was the nature of that lawsuit?
13 A. I am sorry. I am trying to think of the word.
14 I guess discrimination.
15 Q. Who was the defendant?
16 A. City of Overland Park.
17 Q. How was that suit resolved?
18 A. It was settled out of court.
19 Q. Never went to trial?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Have you ever been deposed in any other matter?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Do you understand or do you have an
24 understanding of the deposition process, do you
25 feel like you need me to explain that to you?
8
1 A. No, I don't. I understand it.
2 Q. Do you recall when you started working security
3 at Oak Park Dillard's?
4 A. This is just a guess. I am going to say I had
5 to wait until I finished my rookie year, and I
6 think I started immediately after my rookie
7 year.
8 Q. So around '87?
9 A. Around '87.
10 Q. If you worked there for three years, you
11 finished somewhere in '91 -- did you say three
12 or three and a half years?
13 A. I think three and a half years. I know at least
14 three.
15 Q. Do you know when you last worked at Dillard's?
16 A. Probably around '89, maybe '90. I stopped once
17 I got married.
18 Q. If you started -- I am sorry?
19 A. I am sorry.
20 Q. If you started in '87 and worked there for about
21 three and a half years, it would been about '90,
22 '91ish somewhere around there?
23 A. Yes, '90.
24 Q. I think earlier you said you worked security, is
25 that right?
9
1 A. Correct.
2 Q. Do you recall who the supervisor for security
3 was at the time you were working?
4 A. It was a female, a lady. You mean at Dillard's,
5 not the one who coordinated it for officers,
6 right?
7 Q. Correct.
8 A. It was a lady. I don't recall her name.
9 Q. Do you know whether it was Marvie Dirks, does
10 that name sound familiar?
11 A. I really can't say.
12 Q. Do you recall what type of orientation or
13 training you received when you began working at
14 Dillard's Oak Park?
15 A. Basically, I don't remember any training.
16 Q. Any type of orientation other than human
17 relations, benefit packages?
18 A. Just someone showing me around the store and the
19 security office.
20 Q. What, if anything, did you do in preparation for
21 this deposition?
22 A. Nothing. I talked to -- Mike Santos called me
23 in to tell me about it.
24 Q. The reason I cut you of, I am sorry, it's very
25 important that you understand that I am not
10
1 trying to ask you anything regarding any
2 conversations you might have had with Mike
3 Santos, because that would be privileged between
4 you and the attorney for City of Overland Park
5 Police Department.
6 A. I understand.
7 Q. I wasn't trying to be rude.
8 A. That's all right.
9 Q. Are you aware of any other facts surrounding
10 this litigation, the litigation where Elaine
11 Koch and I are the attorneys?
12 A. Just it had something to do with shoplifting.
13 Q. This incident occurred in April of 1996. Have
14 you discussed any shoplifting incidents with
15 anyone relating to Dillard's Oak Park Mall that
16 would have occurred around that time frame?
17 A. No.
18 Q. What were your job duties when you were working
19 at Dillard's security?
20 A. Basically monitoring some of the cameras -- one
21 camera that they did have at that time when it
22 was working, walking the floors, just watching
23 for anything suspicious, answering whenever my
24 page was called, closing of the security door at
25 the end of the night.
11
1 Q. At the time you were working at Dillard's Oak
2 Park, were there Kansas Highway Patrolmen
3 working there?
4 A. No.
5 Q. How did the security officers dress at the time
6 you were working there?
7 A. At the time -- well, it changed. First
8 beginning they were wearing plain clothes, some
9 officers when I first started. Some were
10 wearing street clothes and some may have come in
11 uniform. There wasn't at that time a set
12 standard of dress code.
13 Q. Was there by the time you left?
14 A. By the time I left, there was for the men, but
15 there wasn't for me because I was the only
16 female security, and it was better without the
17 uniform.
18 Q. Why was it better?
19 A. I was not recognizable as security.
20 Q. What impact did that have?
21 A. Made it easier for me to watch anyone that may
22 have been suspicious, any suspicious activity
23 that might be occurring at the time.
24 Q. Are you aware of any complaints made by
25 African-American citizens against Dillard's Oak
12
1 Park that they were treated differently than
2 other customers?
3 MS. KOCH: Object to the form of the
4 question as vague and overly broad.
5 I am making the objection for the
6 record. You can answer.
7 Q. (By Ms. Finnell) We will start by during the
8 time that you worked there?
9 MS. KOCH: Same objection.
10 A. You mean in writing or verbal.
11 Q. (By Ms. Finnell) Both.
12 A. Yes, verbal.
13 Q. Verbal complaints?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Can you describe those incidents when those
16 complaints were made?
17 A. Well, I heard complaints from citizens and from
18 African-Americans that were employed there.
19 Q. Start with the citizen complaints. By citizens,
20 do you mean customers?
21 A. Customers, yes.
22 Q. Okay. Can you describe those, please?
23 A. Basically complaining about being followed by
24 the clerks, or being followed by police officers
25 in uniform, being watched by one or more clerks
13
1 when they were in the stores.
2 Q. These complaints were made to you?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. How did you respond to those complaints? Let me
5 be specific. How did you respond, first, to the
6 customers, and then what, if any steps, would
7 you take in reference to communicating that to
8 Dillard's management? Let's start with the
9 customers first, how did you respond?
10 MS. KOCH: Object to the form of your
11 question as vague and overly broad.
12 A. I basically advised them if they had a complaint
13 like that or felt like they were being treated
14 unfairly, that they should bring it to the
15 attention of management, if they felt like a
16 clerk did not treat them fairly.
17 Q. (By Ms. Finnell) Did you do any follow-up to
18 the complaints that you received from customers
19 about being followed or watched?
20 A. After a few other incidents that have occurred
21 and complaints, I did bring it to the attention
22 of -- and at this time I can't remember her name
23 -- whoever was the management, the female that I
24 can't remember.
25 Q. The security manager, or the person who was
14
1 responsible for managing security?
2 A. Correct.
3 Q. When you say brought it to her attention, what
4 do you mean specifically?
5 A. We had a conversation. I felt like there were
6 some people that were employed by Dillard's that
7 had a tendency to panic when they saw certain
8 people come into the store.
9 Q. What do you mean by had a tendency to panic?
10 A. They would call security when there wasn't a
11 reason to be calling us, just because certain
12 people or a certain type of people would be in
13 their department. And when I would ask them why
14 I was called over there they really couldn't
15 give me an explanation except for, "I was
16 worried, I was told --" one lady actually told
17 me she was told to call any time if a black
18 person came into her department, and she was
19 worried.
20 Q. Do you remember the clerk?
21 A. I wouldn't remember the clerk.
22 Q. When you say certain people, are you referring
23 to any people in particular? Are you referring
24 specifically to African-Americans?
25 A. Correct.
15
1 Q. So when you referred to certain people in your
2 earlier response, you were referring to
3 African-Americans?
4 A. African-Americans with large purses, with bags,
5 and in a group.
6 Q. How was your conversation with the security
7 manager, whatever her name is, responded to?
8 A. At the time she stated that there had been some
9 other African-American police officers bringing
10 this to her attention before, and that they were
11 going to try to talk to some of the clerks about
12 the problem.
13 Once the incident occurred with me and
14 her there, there was an incident that occurred,
15 she started to realize a little bit more how
16 serious the problem was.
17 Q. What incident are you referring to?
18 A. One morning I got a call for -- the code call
19 for a possible shoplifter in an area, and this
20 lady happened to be with me, so we both decided
21 to team up and go down there and keep an eye on
22 the people.
23 We started watching the shoplifters,
24 watched them pick up some things, watched them
25 put them in the bag, and you have to constantly
16
1 keep your eye on it to make sure people don't
2 take the things right back out. You don't want
3 to accuse them before they get out of the sore
4 or something. And all of a sudden the code went
5 off again, after we were down this for ten or
6 fifteen minutes watching, the code went off. I
7 had to go to another section to try to answer
8 the phone, because if I answered it there they
9 would know who I was, because I was not in
10 uniform.
11 So I went to another section to answer
12 the phone, the clerk advised me that there was a
13 suspicious character -- I am saying suspicious
14 character, she used other words, but a person in
15 her section that she thought was trying to
16 shoplift. I asked her to describe the person.
17 She described a black female, wearing blue pants
18 with a red and white sweater. And I said, "How
19 is her hair fixed?" It was me. It was me she
20 was describing. I was in her section watching
21 the other shoplifters, and that's all I was
22 doing, like I was shopping, just looking, I had
23 no bags, no purses, but that blew our whole case
24 right there, because at that time I had taken my
25 eyes off the other shoplifters, and so had the
17
1 lady who was following -- the other employee,
2 just because someone panicked that I was in
3 their section.
4 So after that, I think she was like
5 the head of the department that side or
6 something, I have forgotten who she was,
7 decided --
8 Q. Which she are you referring to now?
9 A. I am sorry. The head of Dillard's. I am just
10 going to call her the Dillard's management, if I
11 just say management.
12 Q. We are not talking about the associate that made
13 the phone call anymore?
14 A. No, no. We are talking about the Dillard's
15 management. After that incident she was quite
16 upset because we blew the whole watching of the
17 other shoplifters because this clerk panicked
18 thinking I was shoplifting. And after that she
19 stated she was going to start taking our
20 complaints of harassment of African-Americans a
21 little more seriously and maybe start having
22 some kind of training for her employees. And
23 that had occurred, and I told her it had
24 occurred more than once. That wasn't the first
25 time, but it was the first time she was ever
18
1 involved in it.
2 Q. That wasn't the first time that someone had
3 called --
4 A. On me.
5 Q. How many times were you called on?
6 A. At least four times that I can remember. At
7 least that third time she was there to actually
8 see this occurring when she knows I wasn't, you
9 know, even acting like a shoplifter.
10 Q. By called on, you mean -- I want to make sure we
11 are understanding, an associate would call
12 security to come and investigate you as a
13 potential shoplifter?
14 A. Correct.
15 Q. What, if any, follow-up, specific follow-up,
16 were you aware of that actually came out of this
17 manager saying that she was going to take the
18 complaints of harassment of African-Americans
19 more seriously? Are you aware of any programs
20 that were put in place?
21 A. No, I am not.
22 Q. Are you aware of any sensitivity training that
23 was given to any staff at Dillard's?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Are you aware of any cultural diversity training
19
1 that was given to any staff at Dillard's?
2 A. No, I am not.
3 Q. Are you aware of any type of training or
4 presentations at all that would deal with the
5 issue of African-American customers being
6 harassed?
7 A. No, I am not.
8 Q. What happened the first time you were called on,
9 called on still based on the definition that we
10 gave earlier?
11 A. Okay.
12 Q. Called on by an associate to be investigated as
13 a potential shoplifter?
14 A. The first time it occurred I had -- I remember I
15 had a small bag in my hand because I had bought
16 something, and I was just walking around in the
17 one area looking, and I believe watching a lady
18 who was picking some things up and not --
19 looking around, and not quite putting them
20 down. And I got a call -- I heard my page and I
21 went to answer the phone and the lady described
22 that she had a suspicious character, person, in
23 her area, would I come over there.
24 You have to realize, a lot of times
25 they didn't know who security was, the clerks
20
1 didn't, or didn't know who was on duty, or they
2 may have had a changeover and didn't know who
3 security was.
4 Q. You answered the call that you received and --
5 A. I answered the call. I asked for the
6 description again. The description again was
7 me. But I did not advise that lady of this. I
8 said okay, security will be there. So I hung up
9 after finding out what area she was in, and took
10 my time walking over there, watching her as she
11 was watching me. Because I just wanted to show
12 her that you can't call everybody a suspicious
13 character, a suspicious person. And when I
14 walked up to her and excuse me, did you call
15 security?
16 She was a little nervous and said,
17 "Yes, they are coming."
18 I said, "Well, I am your security, and
19 evidently I am the person you thought was
20 shoplifting."
21 She apologized and said, "I didn't
22 know. We are supposed to call any time we see
23 anyone what we were worried about."
24 And I asked her, "Why were you worried
25 about me. What was my actions, what was I
21
1 doing?"
2 And she couldn't come up with
3 anything. So I advised her from now on be a
4 little more cautious on why you are calling so
5 you can give us a little more reasoning, because
6 we can't follow people just to follow them.
7 Q. Do you remember who that associate was?
8 A. No, I don't.
9 Q. Do you remember what the department you were in?
10 A. All I know is it was women's clothing.
11 Q. Do you remember approximately when this would
12 have occurred?
13 A. I had probably been there may be six months, the
14 first time.
15 Q. Did you report this incident to anyone?
16 A. No one with Dillard's management.
17 Q. Did you discuss it with any of the security
18 officers?
19 A. Other security officers.
20 Q. Do you recall with whom you discussed it?
21 A. I think one of them was Greg Powell.
22 Q. Do you recall anyone else?
23 A. No, I don't.
24 Q. Why didn't you discuss it with management at
25 that time?
22
1 A. It was the first time that incident occurred, so
2 I didn't really think about it.
3 Q. The second time, the second of the four times
4 that you were called on by an associate to be
5 investigated as a possible shoplifter?
6 A. I was checking the dressing rooms around closing
7 time.
8 Q. What do you mean by checking the dressing rooms?
9 A. I would go around, check the dressing rooms to
10 make sure that -- an hour before closing make
11 sure there weren't any clothes left in the
12 rooms. They didn't have people to do that at
13 that time, and it made it easier for people to
14 just go in there, come out with what they
15 brought, but, you know, leave with several other
16 things when the clerks wouldn't know what was in
17 the dressing rooms.
18 Q. While you were checking the dressing rooms, what
19 occurred?
20 A. I went in with nothing, came out with nothing,
21 heard my page, and it was paging me from an area
22 I just left and, of course, again my habit was
23 always asking them to describe the shoplifter.
24 That way I wouldn't pass the shoplifter if I am
25 going that direction. And after she described
23
1 the person I told her to stay where she was at I
2 would be over there. And of course I came over
3 there and, you know, she realized it was me and
4 I knew it was me she was calling on. And I
5 advised her what I was doing, and that she
6 needed to more careful. And she saw me come out
7 with nothing, so there was really no reason to
8 call security.
9 Q. Did she acknowledge that she saw you come out
10 with nothing?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Did she tell you why she called security?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Same questions apply who, if anyone, did you
15 report this second incident to?
16 A. At that time the Dillard's management.
17 Q. This is the same woman whose name you can't
18 remember?
19 A. Correct.
20 Q. She was the manager over security in some
21 manner?
22 A. Correct.
23 Q. How did you report it to her?
24 A. Verbally.
25 Q. What, if anything, occurred in follow-up to your
24
1 report?
2 A. Nothing that I know of.
3 Q. Do you recall when this occurred?
4 A. No, I don't.
5 Q. Do you recall whether it was shortly after the
6 first time or --
7 A. I don't recall.
8 Q. You don't recall whether it was in the first
9 year you were working off duty?
10 A. No, I really don't.
11 Q. The third incident is the incident you described
12 earlier, is that correct, when you were actually
13 working with the security manager?
14 A. Correct.
15 Q. Do you recall when that was?
16 A. No, I don't.
17 Q. Do you recall whether it was close in time of
18 the second incident?
19 A. No. All that time seems to run together.
20 Q. It wasn't within a week of the second incident?
21 A. No, it was not. I could definitely say it was
22 probably a few months later.
23 Q. Was the second incident within a week of the
24 first incident?
25 A. No, I would definitely put them probably five
25
1 months.
2 Q. So six months after you started you were called
3 on, then approximately five months later you
4 were called on as a suspected shoplifter?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And then approximately five months later, is
7 that -- I don't want to mischaracterize. I know
8 you are estimating?
9 A. I am just estimating within that three and a
10 half year span that it occurred four times.
11 Q. You did state --
12 A. For me.
13 Q. That the incident that occurred while you were
14 actually responding to a call with the security
15 manager, would have occurred a few months after
16 the second incident that you described?
17 A. I stated it could have been a few months after.
18 It definitely wasn't a few weeks after.
19 Q. The reason why I am going over that is I didn't
20 want to misunderstand or mischaracterize what
21 you just said.
22 A. Okay.
23 Q. And the fourth incident I think you described at
24 least four times you were called on as a
25 suspected shoplifter?
26
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Can you describe the fourth incident?
3 A. I just remember it was close to a check out
4 counter, the clerk was real busy, it was in
5 petites, women's petites before they moved them.
6 There was an older lady with a big shopping bag
7 who put a suit inside the shopping bag, and I
8 was watching her from one of the mirrors, and
9 the clerk was watching me as she was checking
10 someone out, and I was looking at blouses
11 watching the lady. The clerk kept stopping as
12 she was checking this lady out watching me, and
13 then she picked up the telephone to call
14 security, and it was her station. I didn't want
15 to run to the phone to catch the phone. Somehow
16 the clerk's attention kept going my direction,
17 and she looked up at me and yelled, "Ma'am, can
18 I help you?"
19 And them I remember the lady who took
20 the -- had the suit in her bag, looked at me,
21 and I told the clerk, "No, I am just interested
22 in this shirt. I am just looking at it."
23 She said, "I will be with you in a
24 minute."
25 I said, "Okay. That is fine." The
27
1 lady looked at me again, she pulled the suit out
2 of her bag and she put it back on the hanger.
3 She started walking down the aisle, then she
4 yelled at me, "You are that terrible security
5 guard, I knew who you were."
6 That's great, you know, because I was
7 trying to -- but the clerk was so worried about
8 me shoplifting, this lady was probably where
9 that door was close to her, you know, just
10 stealing her blind, and that is one I just won't
11 forget, because I thought it was so funny, and
12 it irritated me. I did go up to the clerk said,
13 "I am the only African-American in here. You
14 were so worried about me shoplifting, that this
15 lady was standing right by you putting things
16 her bag."
17 "Well, I didn't know who you where. So
18 I thought you were shoplifting." But I was
19 standing sort of in front of her to make sure
20 she didn't think I was shoplifting. That is the
21 only incident that makes me laugh and irritated
22 me, because I tried to stand in front of this
23 clerk to make sure I had nothing, I had no bag,
24 but I still panicked her. So it was sort of
25 embarrassing when the lady yelled at me, and I
28
1 thought, "Oh, well."
2 Q. Other than talking with this clerk, did she give
3 any other reason other than not knowing who you
4 were for calling for --
5 A. Just, no, just what I said, and she didn't deny
6 it. A black person was standing there and she
7 panicked.
8 Q. You told her that you thought she called on you
9 because you were black?
10 A. Yes, I did.
11 Q. Is that when she said, "I didn't know who you
12 were?"
13 A. Uh-huh.
14 Q. Yes?
15 A. Yes. I am sorry. And I advised her it
16 shouldn't have mattered who I was. I was in
17 front of you, you knew I had no bag. You
18 panicked because I was black. That's what I
19 told her.
20 Q. How, if at all, did she respond?
21 A. Nervously, embarrassed. She kept saying, "Well,
22 that is what we were told to do." And I just
23 walked away because it irritated me.
24 Q. Did you report this to anyone?
25 A. To that same management lady.
29
1 Q. This occurred after the earlier incident where
2 she had stated that she would be taking
3 follow-up actions in reference to the complaints
4 that have been given to her about
5 African-Americans being harassed?
6 A. Correct.
7 Q. How did she respond when you reported this
8 information to her?
9 MS. KOCH: Object to the extent the
10 questions is vague. Do you mean how did she
11 respond to you or what action did she take?
12 Q. (By Ms. Finnell) I mean both of those. How did
13 she respond, I can separate it into smaller
14 questions.
15 How did she respond to you
16 specifically when you reported this additional
17 incident to her?
18 A. I just remember holding a conversation about it
19 as we were walking, and telling her what was
20 occurring. She had had other complaints from
21 some of the other security guards about the same
22 problems.
23 Q. She stated that?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Are you aware of any corrective measures that
30
1 were taken by Dillard's in response to the
2 complaints that African-Americans were being --
3 how would you characterize the complaints, let
4 me start over, that were being given? How would
5 you characterize the complaints you have been
6 describing that had been given to Dillard's as
7 it related to how African-American shoppers
8 were being treated. I am trying to make sure I
9 don't mischaracterize what you said.
10 MS. KOCH: Object to the form of
11 question. It's vague.
12 A. I just want to make sure I don't use a word that
13 I -- if I was talking to anyone else I would use
14 the word harassed, but that covers so much, but
15 I looked at it as a form of being harassed
16 because of their color.
17 Q. (By Ms. Finnell) Harassed how?
18 A. Picked out out of a crowd, just because you came
19 into the store, and in their area because you
20 are black.
21 Q. Picked out as what?
22 A. Possible shoplifter.
23 Q. Can you think of any other incident where you
24 were called on as a suspected shoplifter?
25 A. No, those are the only times I was called a
31
1 shoplifter.
2 Q. Can you think of any specific incident that
3 would have occurred not relating to you as a
4 potential shoplifter? Just for the record, you
5 are an African-American female?
6 A. Correct.
7 Q. Outside of the times when you were called as a
8 potential shoplifter, can you think of any other
9 specific incidents that occurred at Dillard's
10 while you were working security where you feel
11 that the African-American shoppers were being
12 harassed as you described it earlier?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Can you please elaborate on those incidents?
15 A. I guess these were times when we would bring it
16 to the clerk's attention when they would call
17 us, and we just advised them that they can't
18 just call because they see two females,
19 African-American females, with bags shopping in
20 their area. That would occur a lot. Then I
21 would pick out a white female with a baby
22 stroller with the blanket that covered up an
23 area, and say why wouldn't you call on her. She
24 is in that aisle by herself, da-da-da-da. You
25 just can't -- and then one clerk had advised me
32
1 that there were pictures sometimes that they
2 would get to see of people that they needed to
3 watch out for. I have never seen -- I don't
4 know who would have or how those pictures would
5 have gotten passed on through them. But certain
6 characteristics of people that they should watch
7 for.
8 Q. What were those characteristics?
9 A. They said group of people together, women with
10 large purses, black people, and this is the only
11 time this clerk said this, black people that
12 come in together but then separate, basically
13 characteristics that you can almost put with
14 anyone. But we started noticing there were more
15 calls that we would get on African-Americans.
16 Q. You said any people with large bags?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. That's anyone?
19 A. Anyone.
20 Q. Regardless of race?
21 A. Uh-huh.
22 Q. Is that a yes?
23 A. I am sorry. Yes.
24 Q. That's okay. But you say we would get calls,
25 who are you referring to?
33
1 A. Most of the time there would be a security
2 officer on the Dillard's south, which is
3 normally a male, and then security on Dillard's
4 north, that's how it was called back then, which
5 would normally be a female which was me because
6 I was the only one at that time, female,
7 working. So when I say we I mean security. And
8 sometimes we would overlap and there might be
9 two of us working in one area, one building.
10 Q. By "we" you just mean in general the security
11 officers?
12 A. Security officers, yes.
13 Q. How often would you say during the time that you
14 were working off duty security at Dillard's were
15 you called on a African-American where you
16 believed there was no basis for the call?
17 A. I really can't recall a specific number of
18 times.
19 Q. I'm not looking for a number. Would you say
20 that it was frequent, infrequent.
21 MS. KOCH: Object to the form of
22 question as vague.
23 A. It was enough to bring to my attention that
24 something was wrong.
25 Q. (By Ms. Finnell) How often were you called on a
34
1 suspected shoplifter call -- and that's what I
2 was referring to in the previous question, you
3 understand that?
4 A. Uh-huh. Yes.
5 Q. It is okay for you to forget. There is no key
6 stroke for those.
7 A. I understand.
8 Q. How often would you receive a call on a
9 suspected shoplifter that related to a white
10 customer where you felt that there was no basis
11 during the time that you worked off duty
12 security?
13 A. Would you group Hispanic in with white or Asian?
14 Q. No, ma'am.
15 A. Not often. Not often.
16 Q. Would you say it was rare?
17 A. I would say it was rare.
18 Q. Was there ever a bulletin board of pictures of
19 shoplifting suspects when you were working at
20 Dillard's as security?
21 A. There wasn't a bulletin board. I remember once
22 or twice seeing some photographs that had been
23 taken, not often, but --
24 Q. Were you ever given any policies or procedures
25 when you first started or at any time during the
35
1 three to three and a half years you worked at
2 Dillard's relating to security?
3 A. I don't recall.
4 Q. Were you ever given any objectives during the
5 time that you worked as security for Dillard's
6 Oak Park?
7 A. I don't recall any.
8 Q. Based on your experience as a security officer
9 at Dillard's, do you believe that Dillard's
10 treated black shoppers differently than white
11 shoppers during the time that you worked there?
12 MS. KOCH: Object to the form of that
13 question as vague.
14 A. I feel that there was some discrimination there.
15 Q. (By Ms. Finnell) What do you mean by
16 discrimination, just so we all understand what
17 you mean?
18 A. That African-Americans were singled out as
19 shoplifters.
20 MS. FINNELL: If I can have a couple
21 of seconds off the record.
22 (Discussion off the record.)
23 MS. FINNELL: That's all I have.
24 EXAMINATION BY MS. KOCH:
25 Q. Ms. Jones, I have a few follow-up questions.
36
1 You told us about four different instances where
2 you were working as a security officer and you
3 were called for a suspected shoplifter and it
4 turned out to be you, do you recall the names of
5 any of the clerks involved in these four
6 incidents?
7 A. No, I don't.
8 Q. Do you recall what any of them looked like?
9 A. You know, I know the one for the fourth one was
10 just a slender blond haired young lady, and then
11 the one with the manager was an older lady with
12 dark hair. I really, you know, didn't get to
13 know all the clerks by name.
14 Q. Do you know whether any of those four clerks are
15 still employed by Dillard's?
16 A. I don't know.
17 Q. You have told us that there were times when you
18 were called by sales clerks for suspected
19 shoplifting where you believe the only reason
20 you were called was because the shoppers were
21 African-American, correct?
22 A. Correct.
23 Q. Do you recall the names of any clerks involved
24 in any of those incidents?
25 A. I don't.
37
1 Q. Do you know whether or not any of the clerks
2 involved in any of those incidents are still
3 with Dillard's?
4 A. I don't.
5 Q. You said in response to Ms. Finnell's question
6 about what action was taken by Dillard's
7 management after you complained about being
8 called as a suspected shoplifter, that you
9 weren't aware of any additional training or any
10 actions. You are not saying that there wasn't
11 any action taken, are you?
12 A. I am just saying I am not aware of an action.
13 Q. You don't know what has taken place at Dillard's
14 in the way of training or action in response to
15 your complaints in particular in the five years
16 since you left Dillard's as a security officer,
17 correct?
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. Okay.
20 MS. KOCH: I have no further
21 questions.
22 MS. FINNELL: I Just have one.
23 EXAMINATION BY MS. FINNELL:
24 Q. The harassment as you described it of
25 African-American shoppers at Dillard's Oak Park,
38
1 did that last throughout the three and a half
2 years that you were there?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And just for clarification, why is it that you
5 believed that there were African-American
6 shoppers who were called on as shoplifting
7 suspects just by virtue of their race?
8 A. Because of the calls that I would get, and also
9 talking with some of the African-American clerks
10 that worked there, they voiced the same
11 complaints with the store about the store.
12 Basically the calls that I would receive on the
13 people that they thought were shoplifters.
14 Q. Those are the calls you described earlier as
15 baseless? That is my word.
16 A. Correct. They were baseless. There were no
17 shoplifters that I was able to stop and accuse
18 of being shoplifters.
19 MS. FINNELL: I have nothing further.
20 EXAMINATION BY MS. KOCH:
21 Q. Do you recall the names of any of the
22 African-American clerks who voiced the same
23 concerns?
24 A. I am good with faces, but terrible with names.
25 Q. You need to say yes or no.
39
1 A. I know. I am still thinking. At this time I
2 don't.
3 MS. KOCH: Okay.
4 MR. SANTOS: We would like a copy, and
5 she would like to read and sign.
6 (The deposition concluded at 1:25
7 p.m.)
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1 IN RE: Hampton vs. Dillard's
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24 ______________________
Geraldine Jones
25 JLW
41
1 IN RE: Hampton vs. Dillard's
2
3 ____ I certify that I have read my testimony
4 and request that NO changes be made.
5
6 ____ I certify that I have read my testimony
7 and request that the above changes be
8 made.
9
10
11 ______________________
12 Geraldine Jones
13
14
15 Subscribed and sworn to before me
16 this ____ day of ____________, 19____
17
18
19 ______________________
20 Notary Public
21 State of _____________
22 County of ____________
23 My commission expires ____________
24
25 JLW
42
1 C E R T I F I C A T E
2 I, Judy L. Whitehouse, a Notary Public of
3 the State of Kansas, do hereby certify:
4 That prior to being examined, the witness
5 was first duly sworn;
6 That said testimony was taken down by me in
7 shorthand at the time and place hereinbefore stated
8 and was thereafter reduced to typewriting under my
9 direction;
10 That the foregoing transcript is a true
11 record of the testimony given by said witness;
12 That I am not a relative or employee or
13 attorney or counsel of any of the parties or a
14 relative or employee of such attorney or counsel or
15 financially interested in the action.
16 Witness my hand and seal this 18th day of
17 September, 1997.
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23 Judy L. Whitehouse
24 Notary Public, State of Kansas
25 My commission expires 8/24/00